Date: June 16th, 2016

How to Use A Heart Rate Monitor for Training and How to Increase Your Lactic Acid Threshold

This week, in our eighth mini episode of Ask Kris, we talked about two related topics: lactic acid thresholds and heart rate monitor training. Lactic acid is basically the stuff that builds up in your body to make you feel “pumped”, and it comes partially from having a high heart rate during activity.

Regarding lactic acid, we talk about:

  • how you can increase your lactic acid threshold
  • how a climber might test their lactic acid threshold just like runners do
  • what to do with that information
  • and how to decrease the lactic acid build-up while you’re climbing

One of the big ways to decrease lactic acid build-up while you’re climbing is to decrease your heart rate while you’re climbing, and one way to train that is with a heart rate monitor.

Regarding training with a heart rate monitor, we talk about:

  • how to train with a heart rate monitor
  • at what level of your max heart rate you should be training
  • what kinds of workouts you can do to train at difference percentages of your max
  • how monitoring your heart rate helps you avoid overtraining

This was one of my favorite talks with Kris because it’s one of the few training tactics in climbing that are completely numbers-based and easily tracked and monitored. I hope you get something out of this one! I’m looking into getting a heart rate monitor right now myself…

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Transcript 

Neely Quinn: Welcome to the ‘Ask Kris’ series of the Training Beta podcast. I’m your host, Neely Quinn, and on this series I talk with Kris Peters every week, our favorite trainer over here at Training Beta, about a certain topic of training for climbing for about 15 minutes. This week we’re on episode eight and we’re talking about lactic acid thresholds, which is kind of a tongue twister, and heart rate monitoring for climbing.

I know I say that these only last about 15 minutes and today we went a little bit over. We went about 25 minutes so I’m just going to go right into the interview and let you listen to Kris talk about these things. I hope this helps and I’ll talk to you on the other side.

 

Neely Quinn: Hey Kris, how’s it going?

 

Kris Peters: How’s it going, Neely?

 

Neely Quinn: It’s going great.

 

Kris Peters: Good.

 

Neely Quinn: So, we have a little bit of time today to talk about lactic acid thresholds, lactic acid whatever – I don’t know anything about lactic acid but I’ve heard the words and…

 

Kris Peters:

[laughs] That’s awesome.

 

Neely Quinn: So we’re going to talk about that and heart rate monitoring, which I’m very curious about. I’m actually about to buy myself a heart rate monitor.

 

Kris Peters: Cool.

 

Neely Quinn: So I’ve been reading a little bit. Tell me a little bit about/let’s start with lactic acid.

 

Kris Peters: I think almost everyone knows, or if they don’t know, lactic acid is just basically the build-up of blood in your body and your muscles. When you’re talking about lactic acid threshold, usually when climbers are really feeling that huge pump in their arms, the scientific thing that’s going on is about 85% of your max heartrate is happening. You’re at a high level of your max heart rate and the blood concentrate is beginning to increase. For climbers, it’s usually in our arms. Okay, so a lot of people are like, “Why do I get so pumped? I get so pumped.” That’s your lactic acid build-up and I think most people know of that or have heard of that, kind of like what you were saying, Neely.

 

Neely Quinn: Which is why heart rate monitoring goes so well with this, because it seems the lower you can keep your heart rate, the better off your pump is going to be.

 

Kris Peters: Yes, and for those who don’t know, if you want to know what your max heart rate is, it’s simple. It’s 220 minus your age, so you just take that formula and that is basically what your body can handle for it’s maximum heart rate.

Now, there are some people out there that have a naturally very high resting heart rate and can work at a high intensity of their heart rate, and there are some people that have a very, very low resting heart rate, so everyone’s very different. Sometimes that number can be a little off depending on someone’s general body data, how they’re formed and built.

So, if you take 220 minus your age, that’s going to give you your max heart rate. If you’re buying a heart rate monitor, that’s going to allow you to dictate what intensity you’re working at and what level you should be at. If today’s a big, hard training day the heart rate monitor is going to allow you to see, “Okay, I want to be at 75-85% of my max heart rate.” The heart rate monitor is a great tool because it’s going to let you see you’re in that zone. If you’re below that, “Okay, I’ve got to pick up the intensity.” If you’re over that and you’re skyrocketing, “Okay, let me bring it back down a little bit.”

That’s why I feel a heartrate monitor is so good for any sport, especially for climbing, because most climbers don’t really know what’s happening to their bodies when they train. They don’t know what cardio level they’re at, they don’t know what their heart rate’s at, so having that type of equipment is a huge assistance to anyone’s training.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, I want to talk more about this but I want to do a little more on lactic acid. Basically, when we’re pumped, when our heart rate goes up high, we have this increase in lactic acid and we feel pumped. What are the things we can do to decrease it or how do we train to get our lactic acid threshold higher?

 

Kris Peters: The first thing I would say is you kind of want to know: what is your lactate threshold, you know? You can have those done on tests. Now, this is probably beyond what most people would do or want to do, but you can actually get these things tested so you know what your threshold is.

 

Neely Quinn: Can climbers get it tested?

 

Kris Peters: Climbers? So I was thinking about this because I figured you’d ask that question. Most of the time when you get your threshold tested you’re on a treadmill or a bike. During that time the intensity is increased every couple of minutes and at the end of it or during it, you’re going to get a blood sample taken off your fingertip. You’re going to have a tiny little needle prick your finger, you’re going to take a blood sample, and put it in a lactate analyzer.

Now, I’ve had this done to me before. I was on a treadmill and someone was taking the blood off my finger. I figured out my numbers. With climbers, I think that potentially climbers could do this on a climbing wall. They could climb a 5.8, now climb a 5.9, now climb a 5.10, and while that’s happening you could take these blood samples. What is this climber’s heart rate and body starting to produce? You kind of know at what level you are beginning to produce a lactic acid, where your body’s starting to increase in intensity.

This could actually help people start to understand, “Okay, when I start climbing at this grade, this is when I produce a lot of lactate.” That could actually help with your training. “Okay, if I want to make sure that I can climb this level without being super, super pumped, let me go back to my results of: at this level I was producing my lactic acid threshold, so I’m going to focus on,” – let’s say you’re producing at 5.10 – “I’m going to climb 5.10s until I train my body to become comfortable in that zone so that way I’m no longer going to be producing all that lactate at 5.10.” Then you could move to 5.11, and from 5.11 you could move to 5.12. Does that kind of make sense?

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, that does make sense actually, and that helps me because I have a client who just did this. She’s a runner and they found that/something about her results told her that she was training at too high of an intensity, so she’s was overtraining. That would make sense because you would have to build-up a base a little better.

 

Kris Peters: Yes. Now, some people do have a higher threshold of lactic acid, so they can produce/they can be at a high level and their body is going to continue to push all that out and it’s not going to build up as fast. The advantage of having that is you can obviously work at a level of higher intensity for a long time before the lactate levels become intolerable/before it becomes too much, where you can’t close your hands anymore/you can’t climb.

Again, people are different so there are some people that can work at that high level for a long time and there’s some people that can’t. It’s just kind of finding out what works for you and I think that’s why the testing system is really good for athletes, depending on how serious they are about wanting to know this information and their training.

 

Neely Quinn: But assuming that most of us aren’t going to seek out some physiologist and be like, “Can you test me on a treadwall?” what should we do?

 

Kris Peters: I mean, you can honestly – if you just want to use your heartrate monitor and kind of figure out, “Okay, at what level am I starting to spike?” If you get a Bluetooth heart rate monitor, download any type of app on your iPad or on your iPhone. While you’re climbing you can get off your climb and kind of see what your stats were on that climb. “Okay, I was redlining on this 5.11 on the steep,” so then you kind of have an idea of what your max is, kind of like where your body’s like, “Okay, this is really hard. I’m working really hard and the lactate is building up.”

You can kind of use that heart rate monitor as a way to kind of get around that if you want to. Again, it’s not going to be as scientifically precise but you can still use that to figure out, “Okay, Neely is getting pumped out of her mind on 5.11c and the heart rate monitor tells me that’s correct because she is in her high anaerobic zone during those climbs.”

 

Neely Quinn: I’m kind of weird and I think there are probably more people like this out there, too, so I’m going to ask this question: my resting heartrate is very high. No matter what I do it’s like 70-75 so I’m assuming that my max heart rate is going to be higher as well. I don’t know how that works but I’m assuming it’s going to be different than the standard 220 minus my age…

 

Kris Peters: Not necessarily. It might, but I would have to train you to find out. I would honestly have to have a heart rate monitor with you to figure if that’s true or not, but honestly a lot of average people are probably around 60-70. That’s about average. That’s kind of what I see. Now, if you’re in those 50s or 40s then you have a great resting heart rate. I’ve seen some people put on the heart rate monitor and they’re at 100 right away.

I think with you, Neely, as long as you kind of do a test where you are: “Alright, so Neely, what I’m going to do, I’m going to have you run at a pace that’s uncomfortable and challenging.” I want to make sure that you’re breathing and make sure that you’re sweating on your forehead but you can barely carry on a conversation. Like, I’m literally like “Hi Neely, how was your day?” “It was good.” That’s all you should be able to say in return, just to the point where you can say words and that’s going to allow you to see, “Where’s my heartrate level for this?”

If you take the formula minus your age and you do a simple treadmill test like that, Neely, you should be able to find out, “How accurate is this formula for me?” But I wouldn’t say just because you’re on 70 or other people are around 70, thinking that’s too high, naturally they’re going to be at a higher level with what their max heart rate may be.

 

Neely Quinn: That’s what I was going to ask. How do you test for your max heart rate and so that’s what you were saying. How long would you have a person run?

 

Kris Peters: Probably/I usually do a mile. I usually do a mile test, so I would have you run. Now again, what I’m doing is I’m watching the heart rate on this. I’m not trying to make you be in a sprint for that mile. I want you to be uncomfortable, challenging pace for people, usually if you’re on a treadmill I’ll take the incline up 1% just because a treadmill bounces so much. I take the treadmill up just to try to get rid of that flat, bouncy ground. So, I’ll take that incline up slightly and what I’m looking for/I’m going to ask simple questions: how are you feeling? Are you doing okay? I’m going to read your body language and I’m going to figure out what good pace works for you to be at a level that’s going to allow me to see, “Okay, Neely’s working hard but she’s not overdoing it but this is a pace I can get good readings off of.”

 

Neely Quinn: I’ve never understood that. Why does that measure your max heart rate? Wouldn’t you want them to just go full out, where they’re collapsing on the dirt?

 

Kris Peters: Oh, I didn’t know you wanted your max heart rate.

 

Neely Quinn: What are you talking about?

 

Kris Peters: I thought you were asking the question of, “How do I figure out what my…” – I was thinking something totally different. I thought were you talking about, “How do I go about figuring out what my limits are for just where my lactic starts to build-up?”

If I wanted to figure out what your max heart rate was I’d say, “Neely, go sprint. Now. Sprint 100 yards and go as fast as you can.” I’m going to put you at the highest level possible to see how high you spike, for sure.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay. Is that how climbers should figure out their max heart rate or could we do it somehow on climbs?

 

Kris Peters: I think the hard thing with climbers is that they fall. If you’re trying at your max effort, if you fall, then the test is, to me, not accurate because I need you to finish the climb. That’s why sometimes I might have a climber do a run, do a sprint, or something like that to get their heart rate up super high. In climbing, it’s like, “Okay, that’s a jug. Don’t rest. Keep going.” It’s a little tougher because you can kind of get away with that technique to take stress off of your body at times, like use that heel, put a knee bar in. That’s going to take a lot of pressure off. What we want is that elevated heart rate.

If the climb is super steep and long, that’s going to be a good test.

 

Neely Quinn: But, in general, we can just run?

 

Kris Peters: In general you can just run and figure that out pretty easily.

 

Neely Quinn: So then, I want to do this step-by-step. So you figure out your max heart rate and, say it’s – give me a typical max heart rate.

 

Kris Peters: Say it’s 185.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so 185 is what you find when you do a 100-meter sprint and you check your heartrate.

 

Kris Peters: Yes.

 

Neely Quinn: And then, if you wanted to train – I don’t even know.

 

Kris Peters: If you want to train to be able to increase that, so, “I want to train closer to my max heart rate.” Alright, well I’m going to have you train at 70% of your max heart rate. 70-75%. We’re going to train there and train your body to become comfortable in that zone.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so 75% is 130, of 185. So you’re saying we want to be climbing at 130 for long periods of time?

 

Kris Peters: Just to make sure your body is comfortable in that heart rate zone. So like, for me, I’m training for an Ironman so I can comfortably train at 166-168 right now. Comfortably, I can maintain that for a few hours and not hit a wall of tons of lactic acid and just fall apart. I can train at that for a long time because I’ve been building a base up to that.

 

Neely Quinn: And what’s that, like 85%?

 

Kris Peters: Yeah, for me my max heart rate is – man, I’m old now – 188 is my max. If I’m at – I don’t have a calculator on me. Do you have the math? [laughs] If I’m at…

 

Neely Quinn: 188. Wait, what are you training at? 165?

 

Kris Peters: 165, yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: So you’re at 87%, 88.

 

Kris Peters: So that’s taken me time. I do a lot of cardio. I’m biking, running, I’m backcountry skiing, I do a lot of cardio so I’ve been able to build-up a base to that. So Neely, I can figure out very quickly if a climber needs to be higher than that. If 75% is too easy for them then great, let’s take it up. Let’s train at 75-80% of your max heart rate. Let’s get on those routes, let’s make sure we get your heartrate in that zone and we’ll focus on that for 3-5 weeks and then we’ll kind of retest and have you go to a higher sum. Does that make sense?

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, that totally makes sense. What would a workout look like? Like, how many routes are you doing? How are you actually, logistically, checking your heart rate or is your partner doing it for you?

 

Kris Peters: If I have a climber, I have an iPad, an iPhone, and I’m watching their heart rate. I’m in control of what they’re going to do next. So, okay, my climber is at 80% of their max heart rate. I want to keep them there, and this is where it gets tricky with climbing because if I want to keep you there, I’ve got to figure out a route or a boulder problem that’s going to work for you that you’re not going to fall off and just fall apart.

It’s very challenging with climbing to hone in on this and that’s why I think it’s newer. It’s still kind of like: how does this actually even work? That’s why I think a treadwall would be better, you know? You have a route on a treadwall and you know it’s going to keep you in that zone. It’s just going to keep moving on you so 10-15 minutes is great. I would love to have for you, Neely, to be on there 10-15 minutes. Go workout at 80% and if something does happen and you are getting above that 80% then if there’s a different route on that treadwall with bigger holds, or you can recover slightly to bring that heart rate back down. That’s kind of the idea that I would go with with climbing.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, it seems if you’re not on a treadwall and you’re on actual routes and you have to come down and go to the next route or start it over again, that’s going to totally mess with your training.

 

Kris Peters: Yeah, because that’s when I would have people do up-downs. Climb up now climb down and just stay on the wall. A runner is not stopping on the track or jumping off the treadmill. They’re going continuously. With climbing, you’re eventually getting to the top or you’re falling off and then everything’s stopping. Your body’s trying to recover. It’s like, “Okay, I’m no longer training. I’m going to recover quickly,” and it’s going to drop everything down and kind of mess up what you’re going for.

The best thing to do is be constant. Create a circuit on the bouldering wall and do laps or up-downs, or even be on an auto belay. Up and down on an auto belay would be great, too.

 

Neely Quinn: Most people aren’t going to have you standing there. How could you imagine climbers doing this on their own or with their partner?

 

Kris Peters: The best way to do it on their own is to have your partner telling you where you’re at if they’re belaying you. If you have a woody at home, create a circuit and just have your phone or iPad visible so you can kind of look down. Have a little rest spot, shake out, chalk up, look at your heartrate and keep going. It’s just going to be about having a screen to show you where your heart rate is at or where those stats are at so you know, “Okay, I’m in that zone. I’m going to stay with this now. I’m going to keep going.”

 

Neely Quinn: Alright, so a workout – I know you already said this. You were saying to stay on the wall for 10-15 minutes.

 

Kris Peters: 10-15, yes.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, what else?

 

Kris Peters: This is a lot of information. I mean, it’s hard. Getting tested for this and climbing would be tough. Now, I think there are a lot of climbers out there that have asked me, “Hey, I want to do these things.” By all means, do it. Any coach at a climbing gym, you can buy the lactic analyzer and do this for your team, you can do this for your members. Anyone can do that, it’s just a matter of knowing how to do it and how to show the person that information.

I would actually suggest you maybe go to some sports-specific trainer, you know, who works with big time athletes in running. Those guys are doing it all the time. Runners, joggers, triathletes, they’re always checking this stuff.

Again, a heartrate monitor is a good tool to help people know what intensity they’re at and if they’re working at the right intensity. If you’re someone who loves to train, who just wants to know, “Where am I at? What level am I at? How hard am I trying?” the heart monitor is great.

Lactic acid threshold stuff, I think that’s really new for climbing and I don’t even know if any climbers out there have done this stuff yet but is it helpful? Yes.

Does it give you numbers and things to shoot for and help you calculate your training better? Yes.

Do I think that climbing is focused on that right now? I don’t think so. I don’t think a lot of climbers are thinking about this stuff, but if you’re always wondering, “Why am I so pumped?” Because you’re probably training at a very high level and you don’t have a good base yet or there might be things you can improve differently so you’re not getting so pumped and this type of information could really help you out.

 

Neely Quinn: So how many times a week would somebody do a heart rate monitor workout?

 

Kris Peters: I mean, I wear mine every time I train. I do it all the time because I always want to know, like, okay- on Monday we had a recovery ride. I made sure that my heartrate was about 130-135 for that 30-mile ride of just nice and easy, keeping it casual, and then on Sunday it was a very high intensity day. My heart rate was 175-180 up the Canyon.

I think it’s valuable for all the time because I kind of know how I’m feeling/what needs to happen for my training. I think you can wear it all the time, even if I’m – I’m kind of obsessed with it. Even if I’m just going for a hike with my dog I kind of wear it so see, “Oh, that was really easy and I was on something really steep. I didn’t really break that much of a/I didn’t really hit that high of a heartrate for myself today,” so I think you can wear it all the time when you’re training, no matter what you’re doing, so you can see where you’re at for certain aspects of that session.

 

Neely Quinn: Would it be the 90%? Would that be the goal for people to train up to, like you’ve been doing almost?

 

Kris Peters: I think 80-85% is a good goal to be able to train at. Again, there was one session with Emily Harrington one time. I’ve never seen somebody work out at such a high level/such a high intensity with their heart rate so high for two and a half hours and maintain that. Again, everyone’s different and everyone has a different body makeup. Emily was at 190-195 beats per minute for two and a half hours and it was unbelievable.

Shooting for 80-85 but there are some people out there who are just crazy good athletes and they can do more than others. It just really depends on how your body is made up.

 

Neely Quinn: I remember talking to Jonathan Siegrist about this one time. He used to use a heartrate monitor and one thing that he used it for was when he was on routes/projects, he would get to a rest and notice his heart rate and notice that it was super, super high. One of the things he practiced was getting it down while he was on climbs. Do you have any tips for that?

 

Kris Peters: Yeah, I mean Justin and I would do that all the time with people. We’d have people get to a jug, look at their heart rate, and we would not let them climb until it dropped because we knew that how high they just were, their bodies were working really hard. They were probably really pumped so we needed them to recover. We needed the body to push that lactic acid out so they could finish the climb. That is a very, very good thing that Jonathan knows and understands to do. Like, “Okay, I am at a high level. I need to rest to get it back so I can finish the climb.” That is a great way to use a heartrate monitor, for sure.

 

Neely Quinn: Can you give me an example of how high somebody’s heart rate might be when you’re like, “No more climbing. You have to sit here and rest.” And also, what do you get down to?

 

Kris Peters: My screen has colors. Orange and red means you’re in an anaerobic zone so if my client is in an anaerobic zone and they still have half the climb left, I’m like, “Stay right there on that rest. Rest, shake out, breathe,” and then I literally have watched my clients drop from red down to green or blue, which is recovery. I’ve watched them do that and then I’m like, “Okay, go.” Once they hit that, I know their bodies are not at full recovery because they’re still on the wall, but your body is recovered enough where you can go again, you know? If I try to have them keep going at that red or orange they are going to fall.

Training climbers to stop, breathe, relax, and then finish the climb? That’s how I look at it. If you have/if you’re in that anaerobic zone, if you have that rest jug, if you have a spot where you can get it back, get it back. Shake out, chalk up, slow your breathing down, and then go once you’ve dropped down into a recovery zone.

 

Neely Quinn: What would you say, percentage wise, is a recovery zone?

 

Kris Peters: Percentage wise? I don’t know – 65, 70%? 75%

 

Neely Quinn: Are there any specific breathing techniques that people can use or anything else?

 

Kris Peters: I mean, for my triathlon training, it’s ‘in through the nose and out through the mouth.’ Just big, deep breaths. Big inhale, exhale, and just relax. Just try and slow yourself down. With any of my clients when I tell them to slow it down, their heart rate monitor is on the screen. I’m like, “Okay, look where you’re at. Bring it down. I want to see that green and blue zone.” These are the different colors showing me that they’re recovering, so they just focus on their breathing, I tell them to relax, and just calm themselves down.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay. I know you’ve got to go. We’ve been actually talking for a long time. This one went fast.

 

Kris Peters: That’s good.

 

Neely Quinn: I’m very interested in this topic. Any last words about this?

 

Kris Peters: No. If you guys have any more questions, please let us know. There’s so much more you can go into this. Hopefully it was helpful to ya’ll. I hope everyone has a wonderful, wonderful day and have a good weekend.

 

Neely Quinn: Alright. Thanks, Kris. Have a good one.

 

Kris Peters: Thanks, Neely. See ya. Bye.

 

Neely Quinn: Alright. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Kris about lactic acid thresholds and heart rate monitoring. I am about to go get myself a heart rate monitor. I think this could be really useful, especially because I deal with so much fear when I’m climbing. I think that that, in and of itself, raises my heartrate – well, I know that it raises my heartrate. I think if I could work with that a little bit and just see the physical effects of my fear, maybe it would help me control it a little. Anyway, that’s a whole different topic.

If you wanted to work with Kris, unfortunately you can’t anymore. Not right now. He is taking the summer away from seeing so many clients online and hopefully we’ll bring that back around but in the meantime, if you want a training program by Kris you can definitely use our bouldering strength and power program or our route training program. Both of those are subscription programs which give you three unique workouts every week and they go through six-week cycles. You’ll do, actually, five weeks of work and one week of rest every six weeks. It’ll focus on things like power endurance or strength or power or finger strength. We just cycle through all these things to help get you to be a better climber, overall.

He also has a six-week power endurance program that’s a PDF program. You can find all those on www.trainingbeta.com and I think that’s it for this week. Thanks so much for listening and I will talk to you next week!

 

[music]

3 Comments

  1. Robin O'Leary June 17, 2016 at 9:24 am - Reply

    Hi Neely,

    I coach in the UK and have started tested my clients for their lactate thresholds using lactate scouts (analyser).
    Very interesting reading.

    FYI – sometimes, a high resting HR highlights a potential unhealthy imbalance between your aerobic and anaerobic engines.
    Typically climbers are running a very low aerobic capacity as climbing is typically anaerobic.

    Get tested and get your body analysed. It may be necessary for you to increase your aerobic training – increase your running sessions a day and drop any strength training to once or twice a week (max).

    Get tested and do a podcast, will be interesting to see.

    Thanks,

    Robin

    • Neely Quinn June 17, 2016 at 10:36 am - Reply

      Robin – Very interesting! I don’t need a test to tell me that I need to work on my aerobic capacity – ha! I’m the worst. Working on it, though. It would be cool to do a test and then train and the re-test to see how much of a difference it made. I’ll look into that.

  2. Sander June 17, 2016 at 1:00 am - Reply

    Hi Neely,

    Thanks for this super informative podcast! I’ve been contemplating using a HRM for the fitness part of my training for a while and this podcast convinced me to do it. Next hurdle: which HRM do I choose? It’s rather daunting: there are so many! I figured that the optical ones on a wrist may have a delay that’s undesirable in climbing and additionally they may be thrown off by all the wrist movements. In that case a chest band would be better, but I’m just guessing here.

    Do you have any idea which HRM’s Kris uses or would advice using for climbing training? I hope it can help me out!

    Best,
    Sander

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