Transcription

00:00:01.30
Neely Quinn
All right. Welcome back to the show, Alex. Thanks for talking to me today.

00:00:04.89
Alex
Hi, Nealey. I’m excited to be here.

00:00:07.35
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I am too. So this one’s a little bit different. You’re going to yeah, sort of not interviewing me, but more guiding the conversation than usually do.

00:00:18.84
Alex
Yeah, because I read your amazing email yesterday about climbing couples and partnerships.

00:00:19.70
Neely Quinn
and

00:00:25.46
Alex
And it was honestly the most refreshing thing I’ve read about climbing in so long. and And I just reached out, right? I was like, Nealey, that was awesome.

00:00:33.08
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:00:33.40
Alex
And then here we are. We decided we’d just talk about it.

00:00:36.54
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. um So some people who are listening did not get my email. Can you tell me like what, what was refreshing about it? What did you learn?

00:00:48.31
Alex
In a nutshell, I think you normalized a topic that can often feel very isolating and big and hard to talk about. And the way you brought it up, the way you personalized it and the the way you made it actionable and fixable in terms of like, I’m struggling with my climbing partner. What do I do?

00:01:12.12
Alex
Was so cool. And I just haven’t seen anything like that.

00:01:16.02
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I haven’t either. And that’s part of what I talked about in the email is I i really want to do couples coaching or partners coaching in climbing because i see so many friends and clients who have issues with their partner.

00:01:34.87
Neely Quinn
There’s many different kinds of issues that And I went through that and still go through it with my husband. And we had to take like, so it was like two or three years off of climbing together, which was really disappointing because we spent a lot of our like quality time climbing together. And so it was very sad, but we just weren’t getting along well.

00:01:59.67
Neely Quinn
And i had to go and climb with other people to A, like get some perspective on how to contain my emotions ah because I was, I would get frustrating frustrated with the climbing and then I would sort of take it out on Seth and then he wouldn’t know what to do with that. And it’s unfair to him. And, you know, there were other things that he didn’t really feel like he could tell me because You know, it was a whole dynamic. And so I had to go learn how to contain my emotions, how to deal better with climbing.

00:02:33.46
Neely Quinn
um And we had to get much better at communicating before we were able to climb again successfully, which we now can do. But even like in our trip last year to Italy, we had some issues and we had to do a lot of communicating about it to make it better.

00:02:51.86
Neely Quinn
So I want, like, I really wish that I had had somebody like that who understood the specific dynamics of climbing partnership, whether it’s romantic or platonic or family relationship or whatever, um, to help us through it. Like there’s this not that available and you can talk to therapists, but you know, I’m sure that there are people out there like me who have tried to talk to regular therapists, non-climbing therapists about climbing and they’re It’s helpful, but it’s not like the most helpful.

00:03:24.50
Neely Quinn
So that’s kind of what I wanted to offer to people is like couples coaching, two three of us on a Zoom talking about these things.

00:03:25.14
Alex
Right.

00:03:35.75
Alex
That’s amazing. I just love it so much. And I just see one of the biggest like. issues people face in their climbing is to do with their partnerships, whether they’re romantic, platonic, like family, dad, mom, sister, brother, like across the board, it is such a big piece of the puzzle.

00:04:00.12
Neely Quinn
h Yeah, it is. And I mean, obviously most of my experience has been with rope climbing, but I know that even with bouldering where you’re not dependent on each other, well, sort of with spotting, but like, it’s a little bit different, but it’s, it can still be an issue in, yeah.

00:04:18.87
Alex
Oh, stuff still comes up.

00:04:20.49
Neely Quinn
Like, like what kind of things do you see?

00:04:23.32
Alex
In bouldering specifically?

00:04:24.92
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:04:26.39
Alex
Um, partners doing partners projects as their warmup or climbing or making moves look easy or, um leaving maybe when the person wanted to be supported, the other person went to another boulder to check something out because they weren’t actually needed to be there like a belayer.

00:04:46.42
Alex
So just, um, if somebody is a little more distracted versus present, I, I come across that a lot, but not a lot, but,

00:04:54.36
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:04:56.09
Alex
But it comes up

00:04:58.10
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And we can talk more about that. I am curious. And with all of this, we’re going to be as respectful as we possibly can be about our own partners. But I am curious if you have encountered issues with your own partner.

00:05:12.50
Alex
I mean, I’ve done that to my partner and vice versa, bouldering. So just where it’s like, ah okay, well, you’re just hanging out, sitting on this pad. So I’m going to off, have fun in the forest for a little bit, do my thing. Yeah. and But I mean, honestly, most of the stuff that comes up is in and around sport climbing just because we’re so much more reliant on our partner and – And it crosses over in so many ways.

00:05:45.24
Neely Quinn
Like what?

00:05:46.33
Alex
Like, was the trip satisfying or not? Was it a good trip? Like a trip could be awesome or terrible and have nothing to do with the actual climbing, but just the interactions between partners. Yeah.

00:06:00.02
Neely Quinn
h

00:06:00.73
Alex
And being on the same page and able to communicate about where do each of us want to go today? Are we, is somebody putting aside what they want to do to support the other?

00:06:12.95
Alex
Is self-agency involved? Is there enough give and take? um Even in who warms up first, who climbs first, ah rope gun, not rope gun, like all these situations, they’re complex, like for sure.

00:06:24.09
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Right. right Yeah.

00:06:30.46
Neely Quinn
They are complex. That’s a really common one that I see with clients is people are worried that their partner doesn’t want a rope gun for them if they’re like too scared to do something or they are worried that their partner doesn’t want to deal with their fear on the wall.

00:06:48.47
Neely Quinn
Um, another one for me was like when I would get scared while climbing and this still happens when I would get scared, like there’s a certain way that I wanted to be supported and I wasn’t being supported that way.

00:07:04.02
Neely Quinn
You know, it and this is something that comes up a lot as people are like, I get scared because

00:07:04.66
Alex
Yeah.

00:07:09.21
Neely Quinn
And then my partner tells me I don’t need to be scared or like there’s nothing to be afraid of.

00:07:13.48
Alex
Hmm.

00:07:15.56
Neely Quinn
And they start trying to fix the problem right away. And this was a huge thing that happened. I mean, my Seth and I have been together for 21 years and We’ve had this issue for as long as we’ve been together until Italy, where I told him specifically, I don’t want you to tell me that it’s okay.

00:07:38.30
Neely Quinn
I want you to tell me that it’s okay that I’m afraid.

00:07:44.89
Alex
so different and how would he know that until you say it like that’s so cool

00:07:46.17
Neely Quinn
And Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s how we’re taught to deal with people’s emotions. Like, no, it’s okay. You don’t have to feel that way. Don’t feel that way.

00:07:59.42
Neely Quinn
Because it’s scary to watch somebody feel something so big. You don’t know how to support them. And it’s counterintuitive to just let it be. But I remember the specific climb I was on and I stopped and I was like, I am so scared.

00:08:14.81
Neely Quinn
And I just took for a while. And he goes, and this was after many conversations about this. And he was like, yeah, it’s okay that you’re scared. And then he was just quiet. He was just quiet.

00:08:25.05
Alex
And how did that make you feel? Like what happened for you?

00:08:26.30
Neely Quinn
Oh my God. it was this the most relieving thing that could have happened. I was like, he saw me and he accepted me. And then there was no longer like this anxiety about knowing that my partner, you know, was judging me or impatient with me or anything or like wanting me to be a different person than I am.

00:08:52.66
Neely Quinn
There was none of that. So there was no shame, which when you have the fear and then you have the shame about the fear, it just makes the fear worse. Yeah. So I remember very clearly, i was like, oh my God, thank you.

00:09:06.78
Neely Quinn
And he gave me time, which I asked him to do And then he was like, what would you like to do? and I was like, and I had already been thinking about that because I could think more clearly than normal.

00:09:18.71
Neely Quinn
And I was like, I’m definitely going up. And then I was able to like make a plan. And then I i did really well and it was totally fine.

00:09:26.20
Alex
Incredible.

00:09:27.80
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:09:28.86
Alex
Yeah, I want people to have that experience instead of the rever or like the more common one, which is somebody gets scared and then they might they either don’t feel supported or they get snappy at their partner or their partner tries to fix their problem for them.

00:09:41.75
Neely Quinn
Yes.

00:09:46.90
Neely Quinn
who

00:09:47.61
Alex
I see that a lot, actually.

00:09:49.69
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:09:49.94
Alex
we We want to solve our partner’s problems, sometimes in a micromanaging over bearing kind of way or when it’s just not asked for.

00:10:00.05
Neely Quinn
Like, how do you, yeah. How do you see that play out when somebody is scared?

00:10:09.14
Alex
I think when we’re scared, we can turn into ah the worst communicator side of ourselves that we have in us. Like the tone is off.

00:10:17.27
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:10:19.51
Alex
It’s, it, it can come across as angry or annoyed or blaming on the partner and then the belayer gets like feels attacked but they can’t just leave you can’t just have a second right you’re like you’re literally tied to this person in this situation and wow that happens all the time right I see that probably at least once or twice every weekend in rifle in some contexts

00:10:28.50
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:10:47.99
Neely Quinn
<unk>

00:10:52.22
Neely Quinn
yeah Yeah, totally. Yeah, because the the thing this especially happens with me is I get scared, which is the primary emotion. But the secondary emotion is anger.

00:11:05.36
Neely Quinn
Whenever I’m scared, I get i get snappy, like So my instinct is my husband would say, you know, there’s it’s okay, it’s safe. And I’d be like, how do you know? You know, something like that. Like, how do you know? i don’t I don’t feel safe or whatever. And it would be snappy. And I think that one of the things that he’s learned too is like, that is my response to fear and it isn’t personal to him. Of course, my responsibility is to not speak to him that way, but sometimes it just happens.

00:11:38.15
Alex
Well, is that different for you when you took a break from climbing together and you were climbing with other people?

00:11:38.20
Neely Quinn
And so I

00:11:43.96
Alex
Did you learn how not to respond in a snappy way?

00:11:48.06
Neely Quinn
Yes, definitely. i was climbing with other friends, like many different people. And there’s this familiarity, you know, that you have with your partner that you don’t have with other people.

00:12:00.94
Neely Quinn
It’s kind of like how you snap at your parents, but you would never snap that way at your friends.

00:12:04.92
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:12:07.70
Neely Quinn
And that’s kind of how, yeah.

00:12:08.57
Alex
One can hope.

00:12:10.22
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Right.

00:12:11.10
Alex
Yeah.

00:12:11.18
Neely Quinn
right And I have, I have like, i um, and, and other people do too, like, it’s not just me, but I’m definitely way less prone to doing that. I just have a filter, a much stronger filter. And it, I like, I, um, strengthen that muscle of filtering in order to then use that with Seth.

00:12:34.20
Alex
I love this conversation already.

00:12:36.92
Neely Quinn
I feel like you have a really good filter with everybody, even Luke.

00:12:42.52
Alex
I, if I’m just going to be super honest, I think that’s more of just an, am I going to say this correctly? I think I just filter in general.

00:12:54.94
Alex
ah That might even go into a masking category of some sort.

00:12:54.94
Neely Quinn
anyway

00:12:59.82
Alex
Like I, yeah. But I mean, I, I have reactive moments.

00:13:08.18
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:13:08.95
Alex
But they’re usually in my inside voice and not my outside voice. They just usually don’t come out.

00:13:14.84
Neely Quinn
ah

00:13:15.22
Alex
yeah

00:13:16.15
Neely Quinn
Right. Yeah. Yeah. It’s the same with like,

00:13:19.93
Alex
But I create a vibe that’s really strong. So even if I’m not snapping and it sounds angry, I create an energy that’s like, I’m upset. And that really can come across as I’m upset with you.

00:13:33.53
Neely Quinn
Yeah, right.

00:13:33.98
Alex
Even if I’m just upset that I’m scared.

00:13:36.18
Neely Quinn
Yeah. So yeah, exactly. And I think that’s really common. So the the things that I would want to work on with people in couples, right, is being able to sort of replay these scenarios. Everybody has, like, if I said to a couple, tell me the last time that you had a disagreement or friction in your climbing. They could conjure something that happened recently and we could sort of replay it and then talk about like, okay, partner A, what were your thoughts at that time?

00:14:14.04
Neely Quinn
Partner B, what were your thoughts? Partner A, what were the emotions that were happening?

00:14:18.43
Alex
Oh.

00:14:18.98
Neely Quinn
Partner B, what were the emotions? And And so they could at least see then what the other person was feeling and the truth behind it. And then I could teach them how to validate each other and just listen exactly the way that Seth just listened to me.

00:14:35.58
Neely Quinn
Like, I feel this way. and him just being like, it’s okay that you feel that way. And we can learn together how exactly to do that.

00:14:46.46
Neely Quinn
And it’s because it takes practice, right?

00:14:48.69
Alex
It’s not magic is what you’re saying. Like we can improve this.

00:14:50.46
Neely Quinn
Yes.

00:14:54.01
Neely Quinn
Yeah, exactly. And sometimes it just takes a mediator to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, which I feel like I’m uniquely qualified to do with my personality, you know, working with two people.

00:15:06.78
Neely Quinn
i know that i can… ah appropriately interject, wait, wait, wait, this is your normal cycle with each other’s to get defensive, to, so you know, take it personally.

00:15:20.15
Neely Quinn
But what is she actually saying? Like, what do you hear her saying?

00:15:23.13
Alex
Yeah.

00:15:23.64
Neely Quinn
You know, things like that.

00:15:25.40
Alex
i couldn’t agree more that you’re a perfect person for that for so many reasons.

00:15:30.78
Neely Quinn
Yeah, it’s like, so when I become a counselor, I really want to focus a lot on couples counseling because relationships have always just been like the most fascinating thing for me. And I realized recently why I’ve always been obsessed with like reality shows, the stupid, stupid reality shows, the bachelor what love it first or, uh, whatever, all, all the things. And, um, it’s because I love being an observer to other people’s relationships. I just find it fascinating.

00:16:04.73
Neely Quinn
It’s like a, a big puzzle. Um, so anyway, that’s kind of where all of this is coming from.

00:16:11.80
Alex
Yeah. So you created a great outline today for this conversation, actually, with a lot of um talking points that i was like, wow, that’s brilliant. I can’t wait to talk about that.

00:16:24.95
Alex
So I’m really wanting to learn more about what you were saying in most common issues couples in partner space. And I know we talked about this a little bit, but can we go into more detail about like emotional projection and mismatched goals?

00:16:41.15
Alex
mismatched ability, belay trust, that kind of thing.

00:16:44.25
Neely Quinn
Yeah, for sure. So yeah, we’ve been talking about emotional projection. So taking your climbing frustrations out on your partner. And it’s not, it sometimes is not even just your climbing frustrations. It can be like a lot of people, um,

00:17:01.37
Neely Quinn
Even just if you’re on a trip or whatever, all of the logistics and everything, and this goes into one of my other points too, all of it can just feel very stressful and different. You’re out of your element. You’re uncomfortable in so many ways. and or like you’ve traveled across the world and you’re jet lagged or whatever it is.

00:17:21.27
Neely Quinn
And it’s really easy to take your frustrations out on your partner. And sometimes we do this in these like really snippy, very passive aggressive ways, because we’re not taught how to communicate directly to each other, especially women are definitely not taught that that is okay to do.

00:17:39.14
Neely Quinn
Like, I see that you’re doing this, I feel this way about it. And this is my request, like making requests in general is like, Yeah, your face says it all.

00:17:50.00
Neely Quinn
Like, what what do what do you think about making requests of people?

00:17:50.42
Alex
Yeah.

00:17:53.30
Alex
Like when I’m angry, I’m going to go into the kitchen and I’m going to drop a spatula on the floor and stomp around and until hopefully he’s like, he’s like, oh, I haven’t been texting you. I love you in the morning. I’m sorry. Let me text you. I love you. I don’t just say, hey. Yeah.

00:18:08.12
Neely Quinn
Yeah, exactly.

00:18:08.41
Alex
Yeah.

00:18:10.30
Neely Quinn
i don’t I don’t think you’re alone in that. And I do the same thing sometimes. You know, we like withdraw or

00:18:18.30
Alex
Yeah.

00:18:18.90
Neely Quinn
Yeah, we get quiet. We don’t we we withhold love.

00:18:22.82
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:18:22.84
Neely Quinn
We withhold acceptance. And that can create this like distance between you. And it can then create resentments.

00:18:33.85
Neely Quinn
And the other person starts doing the same thing. basic and that it devolves into this like nitpicking what you’re doing, ah making cutting remarks about your…

00:18:47.38
Neely Quinn
personality, like all of it. And so i just think that if we nip this in the bud while climbing, we’re we’re in this like heightened state, right? If we know how to communicate what we’re feeling and what we need, um then none of that needs to happen, right?

00:19:06.74
Alex
Yeah. I have a question for you.

00:19:09.18
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:09.66
Alex
So one of my biggest issues in my relationship with my partner, Luke and climbing has always been that i if he is at all in a perceived bad mood by me, so he doesn’t even have to be in a bad mood.

00:19:23.53
Alex
It’s just, I perceive that he is, or he’s upset.

00:19:26.20
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:19:27.74
Alex
I get upset that he’s upset.

00:19:30.10
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:19:31.26
Alex
And then like i create – and so if he was like grumpy, he fell on his project or whatever for like three minutes, I would be grumpy for two hours that he got grumpy that he was – is that emotional projecting? What is that? and And I just really quickly want to say that’s been the biggest game changer for me in our relationship where I really leveled up is I realized like – He could be and feel however he wants. And that doesn’t need like that doesn’t mean anything against me.

00:20:02.04
Alex
Like I didn’t cause that.

00:20:04.38
Neely Quinn
Yeah, right. Even if you said something to him that upset him, you didn’t technically cause it.

00:20:12.38
Alex
Yeah, and holding on to that. And then as a as a result, like we just, I don’t know, I feel like he’s always in a good mood anymore, but he’s not like defending himself against me who is having such a strong reaction to him having at any emotion at all.

00:20:26.58
Neely Quinn
Yeah. So with that, I would ask you, why is it, why are you upset that he’s upset? Because how is it affecting you?

00:20:37.18
Alex
So you want me to answer?

00:20:39.80
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:20:40.98
Alex
I was upset that he was upset because I, in how do I put this? I feel like we both invest so much into these trips in this time.

00:20:53.33
Alex
And then I feel like it’s a sabotage to the time.

00:20:57.62
Neely Quinn
right

00:20:58.30
Alex
or Or like I would take it personally that I messed something up in the planning or in the day or like, like I would internalize and blame myself that he was having any feelings. Yeah.

00:21:10.39
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And I mean, I think that, so basically what I’m hearing you say is you’re upset because I’m going to, I’m going to extrapolate. You want to have a good time.

00:21:20.48
Neely Quinn
You want him to have a good time. you invest time and money

00:21:23.86
Alex
And if I think he’s not having a good time, then I’m ups.

00:21:23.96
Neely Quinn
and

00:21:26.72
Alex
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:21:27.22
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Because it affects your mood.

00:21:31.86
Alex
Yeah.

00:21:32.38
Neely Quinn
Like if he’s treating you a certain way, cause he’s upset than that.

00:21:34.71
Alex
And I want this trip to be awesome.

00:21:36.57
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s really normal. i think it’s very common probably, but, um, I don’t know that I would call it projection. i would call it making assumptions and I would call it caretaking another person’s feelings.

00:21:50.42
Alex
See, that’s so helpful to have a proper label.

00:21:52.82
Neely Quinn
Well, and going even further, which I’m not going to try to diagnose you. i can’t do that. But there’s codependency too. And a lot of times when people grow up in emotionally unstable environments or with people who have addictions or whatever, they they get really attuned to other people’s emotions and they want to fix. And so they they fixate on fixing.

00:22:20.06
Neely Quinn
and making sure that everything is copacetic. And I’m not saying that you’re codependent, but okay.

00:22:25.46
Alex
Oh, I 100% am

00:22:27.42
Neely Quinn
ah yeah

00:22:27.82
Alex
I’ve worked really hard on this. yeah

00:22:29.37
Neely Quinn
Right. And so, so when people are codependent, they tend to take on other people’s emotions. And, and so um that’s a thing that you have to then work on is like doing exactly what you did is creating space between you and the other person and knowing that it’s their responsibility and not yours.

00:22:47.42
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:22:47.74
Alex
Yeah, that’s so helpful.

00:22:50.71
Neely Quinn
Yeah. so but you know, that’s a whole thing in itself is like recognizing that but Seth and I wrote, read this book recently called you’re not crazy. You’re just codependent or something like that. It’s a funny title and it’s not even written by a counselor, but it’s written by a person who is codependent and the whole, we were both like, Oh my God, we’re totally codependent. And since then things have changed for the better for, for sure.

00:23:18.12
Neely Quinn
yeah, So yeah, I think that if there’s deep seated stuff like that, like that’s where counseling and coaching and all this can be super helpful.

00:23:29.77
Alex
but even just your insight there with no that’s not quite emotional projecting it’s dot dot dot that’s what I need to be objective about it and to step outside of the feeling and just be like oh okay like it It removes how personal it is and so in a way.

00:23:45.72
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:48.28
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. Which is what you did with Luke too. You were like, that’s his mood. He’s allowed to have it. And it’s maybe because of me and maybe not. And that’s where communication could come in. And I’ve had clients where, cause lot of times with my coaching clients, I’m not working with the couple, but I’m working with a person who has issues with their partner.

00:24:10.01
Neely Quinn
And sometimes they’ll be like, i I don’t know what’s going on with my partner, but it puts me into a weird mood. And I say, well, do you ask them what’s going on? And they say, no And right.

00:24:23.58
Alex
like, why would you want to poke a bear? Like you get this feeling that it’s it’s dangerous to ask.

00:24:28.15
Neely Quinn
Right. Poke a bear. That’s perfect. But, but what they say they do say is, um, did I do something wrong? Or they’ll say, are you having a bad day?

00:24:38.74
Alex
Hmm.

00:24:43.51
Neely Quinn
Or what’s wrong with you? Or something like that. And it’s it’s like these very pointed questions. And then, of course, their partner is like, I’m fine. What are you talking about? And so that they gaslight them because their partner might not even know. But they certainly weren’t cued in the right way. the a better question would be like, how are you doing?

00:25:05.69
Alex
and that’s so good. I ask Luke all the time, are you grumpy? You seem like you might be grumpy.

00:25:09.14
Neely Quinn
Right. Yeah.

00:25:10.51
Alex
Are you grumpy? And he’s like, no, I’m not grumpy.

00:25:11.86
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:25:13.51
Alex
And I’m like, well, you kind like now you seem extra grumpy. yeah

00:25:19.42
Neely Quinn
Right. And how do you think that is taken by him when you say, are you grumpy? Like if I said that to you.

00:25:27.58
Alex
Yeah, I don’t know because he doesn’t do that to me. That’s like, but I don’t think it would feel good.

00:25:32.63
Neely Quinn
No, if I said to you, are you grumpy right now? You seem grumpy. Like what would that do to you?

00:25:37.50
Alex
Yeah, it’d be like when you’re really tired and somebody’s like, you look so tired. It doesn’t feel good.

00:25:42.78
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And especially if you’re not tired.

00:25:44.25
Alex
It makes you defensive.

00:25:45.82
Neely Quinn
Yeah. You’re like, no, I slept fine. What are you talking about?

00:25:48.63
Alex
Yeah.

00:25:49.27
Neely Quinn
Yeah. So if, could you imagine saying to him instead, how are you doing? Just like really, really neutrally.

00:25:55.00
Alex
Yeah, that would be so easy. Like, it doesn’t seem actually hard. It’s just, I’ve never done that.

00:26:01.30
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And if they’re like, I’m doing fine.

00:26:04.79
Alex
Because it’s not judging. It’s not like putting a judgment on somebody, right?

00:26:06.23
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:26:08.33
Alex
You’re just… Okay, and then go on. So they say, I’m doing fine.

00:26:12.89
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I’m doing fine. And you’re kind of like, are you sure in your mind? You can say things like, well, I i noticed that you’ve been quiet for the last 15 minutes and normally you’re not this quiet. So I’m wondering if you’re feeling something big or if you’re feeling something or if if you want to talk about it.

00:26:32.92
Alex
Yeah, that’s not threatening.

00:26:32.92
Neely Quinn
And so just, yeah. Yeah. It’s genuine curiosity.

00:26:38.07
Alex
And it’s not fueling a fire that we’re trying not to have in the first place.

00:26:40.60
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:26:43.83
Neely Quinn
Yeah, you’re just giving them like very basic open-ended questions. And if they continue to say, you know, no, I’m fine.

00:26:57.34
Neely Quinn
and you know that they’re not because they’ve been snipping at you, they’ve been like throwing things around, blah, blah, blah. Then that’s where you start to use nonviolent communication, which is like the I statements and dear man, which I’ve talked about before on the podcast, which is a D a dialectical behavioral therapy tool that I use all the time.

00:27:20.98
Neely Quinn
And it’s just this very neutral communication. It’s like, I noticed that you threw your shoes over there. And I noticed that you haven’t been talking really for the last 15 minutes.

00:27:34.04
Neely Quinn
And I noticed that your facial expressions are, they look a little bit tense. And I feel anxious that maybe I’ve done something to upset you or that you’re not having a good time. And it’s really important for me that you have a good time.

00:27:55.06
Neely Quinn
um And then your request is like, can you talk to me about what’s going on so that we can have a really good trip? the

00:28:05.05
Alex
Yeah.

00:28:05.82
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And that’s different than like, are you grumpy?

00:28:10.69
Alex
Or are you mad at me? Yeah. Are you grumpy?

00:28:12.86
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:28:13.63
Alex
Are you mad at me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it just it. um You could see how that could go to a productive place.

00:28:22.14
Neely Quinn
Yeah, because what we think is that if we tell somebody our emotions about how they are impacting us, that it’s going to burden them and it’s not fair to burden them.

00:28:38.00
Neely Quinn
And if we request something of them, that’s a burden to them. But typically when people can see your feelings on a plate in a neutral way,

00:28:48.95
Neely Quinn
they feel their impact on you and they don’t want you to feel that way. So they will typically open up if it feels safe for them.

00:28:57.91
Alex
Yeah, that’s cool.

00:29:00.34
Neely Quinn
Yeah, so um that’s kind of like the basis for a lot of this work. And then I think we can go on to like the mismatched goals or ambitions that I had written out.

00:29:13.85
Alex
Yeah.

00:29:14.65
Neely Quinn
Have you ever experienced like having a partner who has different goals? People are sort of sacrificing their own goals for another person’s or anything like that?

00:29:30.52
Alex
Of course, all the time. I’ve experienced it. It also comes up a lot in my coaching because let’s say somebody reaches out to me and they want to climb 512 and they’ve been climbing for several years and they have a group of friends and partners already who might not share their ambitions to progress in the way they want to progress.

00:29:55.38
Alex
and to project things and to spend time at one climb, to go back to a climb multiple times on a trip.

00:30:00.73
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:30:00.89
Alex
Like there’s lots of people who are just not interested in that. And that’s totally fine, but they find themselves in a place of having changed goals and ambitions from the people they already have relationships with.

00:30:17.24
Alex
And that comes across all the time. And my response to them is like, you need new partners. But that’s me. What’s your response?

00:30:27.32
Neely Quinn
Well, I mean, I would agree with you to some extent. Like if their partners, if they have a conversation with them that’s frank and and explicitly says, this is what i want,

00:30:43.29
Neely Quinn
and this is my request of you. I want to go back to this project for two days or whatever. And their partner says, I don’t want to do that. And I refuse basically.

00:30:54.84
Neely Quinn
Then yeah, they, then you start looking for a different partner, not necessarily on that trip, but

00:30:59.06
Alex
Yeah, but your in-between step is really awesome to me.

00:31:04.34
Neely Quinn
yeah, the talking.

00:31:04.89
Alex
Because it’s, yeah, the talking part.

00:31:05.50
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:07.54
Alex
that’s That’s something I’ve never suggested. And I’m like, oh, that’s why people need to work with you about this.

00:31:14.07
Neely Quinn
Right.

00:31:15.03
Alex
Yeah.

00:31:15.77
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Because it’s easier to just avoid and, and like ghost people or whatever, and never talk about it again.

00:31:18.24
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:31:22.22
Neely Quinn
But if the person is important to you and you like climbing with them, because it’s one thing if like, you don’t trust the person to belay you, they’re kind of, you know, annoying to be around.

00:31:22.42
Alex
Yeah.

00:31:31.43
Neely Quinn
Like, yeah, fine. Go get another partner. But especially if it’s your husband or your, you know, girlfriend or whatever.

00:31:37.62
Alex
Yeah.

00:31:39.32
Neely Quinn
um So, yeah, I think that, and And then also there’s the one person having higher expectations of their partner than their partner has for themselves.

00:31:52.57
Neely Quinn
Okay. So like if one person, i have a client who And they like to take projecting slowly.

00:32:03.19
Neely Quinn
They top rope a thing and they try to lead it bolt to bolt. And then they try, you know, like it’s a slower process than than just going up and trying to onsite or something and, you know, falling

00:32:14.94
Alex
Doing it quick isn’t the most important thing to them.

00:32:17.75
Neely Quinn
it Well, they’ve discovered that if they just get on it, it’s not going to be quicker, you know, because they’re going to be scared.

00:32:25.38
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:32:27.25
Neely Quinn
They’re going to be falling.

00:32:28.31
Alex
Right.

00:32:28.53
Neely Quinn
It’s going to be whatever. So they’ve discovered that they like this process and their partner doesn’t like that. They do that because it’s not, it doesn’t, uh, it’s not the same as their own values. Like that their partner’s value is I’m going to,

00:32:44.86
Neely Quinn
put this thing up on lead and I’m going to try as hard as I can first go. And that’s just not how this other person works. And I think that there’s a lot of mismatch in this exact way going on out there.

00:32:56.09
Alex
What do you do about that? I just label somebody.

00:32:58.01
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:32:59.17
Alex
I’m like, well, that person’s a jerk. But that’s not true. Like I’m like I’m starting to like see a bigger picture here.

00:33:06.36
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And in in general, this person really likes climbing with this partner. They’re safe, they’re reliable, all the things.

00:33:11.63
Alex
hmm.

00:33:13.48
Neely Quinn
So they don’t want to just be like, oh, you’re a jerk, bye. they So I have to work with them on you know creating their own self-worth and their own sureness of their choices about their their method. Yeah.

00:33:29.30
Neely Quinn
Like, it’s okay that you have a different method than this person, even if this person has been climbing for 30 years.

00:33:29.42
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:33:35.83
Neely Quinn
That doesn’t make that the only method. That’s right. And so for them to stand firmly in their on their ground and say to the person, when they say, well, you should just lead it, you know, they can say very confidently, and this is important that you say confidently, is like, that’s not my process. I’m going to top rope it.

00:33:58.14
Neely Quinn
And that’s all that really needs to happen is because when you when you say to the person like, oh, yeah, maybe I should lead it, but I’m kind of scared. and the person’s like, well, don’t be scared.

00:34:09.97
Neely Quinn
There’s nothing to be scared of. Just like ah and then the person feels even worse because then they’re like, well, i shouldn’t be scared. What’s wrong with me that I am scared? It’s like this isn’t my process.

00:34:20.87
Neely Quinn
I’m going to top rope it. And the person’s like, got it.

00:34:23.99
Alex
And that could feel so scary to say, right?

00:34:27.61
Neely Quinn
Yes.

00:34:51.96
Alex
And so like what you just described, I can see in working with you when you’re like, this is what you need to say. That’s huge. But then the next part might just be practicing saying it confidently.

00:35:04.34
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And in a couple’s session, that’s what would happen is like, okay, you told me that now tell them that.

00:35:16.95
Neely Quinn
Yes. It’s not my process to do this this way. I feel comfortable doing it this way because A, B, and C.

00:35:25.17
Alex
Yeah.

00:35:25.24
Neely Quinn
Are you willing to support me in that?

00:35:29.27
Alex
That’s, I mean, there’s no fighting, like that’s not a conflict zone.

00:35:33.90
Neely Quinn
Yeah, right. Nobody’s feelings are hurt. Everybody’s just talking about facts.

00:35:37.82
Alex
Even though if without that, it often ends up in a conflict.

00:35:41.53
Neely Quinn
Yeah, exactly.

00:35:42.68
Alex
Okay. Okay.

00:35:44.69
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And sometimes people don’t even know. This is what I prefer because they’re so, you know, peer pressured into thinking it has to be this way.

00:35:58.36
Neely Quinn
Um, yeah, so that’s that one. that There’s a lot.

00:36:02.41
Alex
I have a question.

00:36:03.38
Neely Quinn
Yeah, go ahead.

00:36:04.25
Alex
ah One that comes up a lot for me is unsolicited advice between couples.

00:36:09.37
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:36:11.13
Alex
how do you How do you recommend couples handle that? Like, how like let’s say

00:36:18.74
Alex
the person who is receiving unsolicited advice wants to stop that from happening, but they don’t know how.

00:36:26.07
Neely Quinn
Have you had this happen?

00:36:28.57
Alex
Yeah, quite a lot, actually, between partners.

00:36:31.86
Neely Quinn
Okay, and…

00:36:33.14
Alex
And like parents and kids, like I was a kid coach forever, right? So you have like, somebody who they want to just make the person’s experience better.

00:36:43.25
Alex
So when they see their person struggling, they want to fix it and they want to give beta advice, tell them what to, how much time to rest, how much, like all the, they want to micromanage the scene, but that the receiving person, sometimes they’re into it and sometimes they’re not.

00:36:54.66
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:37:00.62
Alex
What about when they’re not?

00:37:03.51
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I mean, in the moment… This one’s tricky because sometimes it happens with just randos. We’ll be like, here’s the beta. And I feel feel like people are getting better about that. But you just say, and especially when it’s a female, because when females when women say things like, I don’t want this, it’s bitchy, in quotes.

00:37:28.37
Alex
Hmm.

00:37:28.63
Neely Quinn
and We don’t want to be bitchy. But if we can just, again, stand in our own ground, like… I, my value is that i want to figure this out myself.

00:37:41.53
Neely Quinn
I don’t want beta. You just simply firmly say, i don’t want your beta. Thank you.

00:37:49.34
Neely Quinn
You know, and if it’s a person who’s continuously doing it to you and it’s your partner, whoever that, that warrants a conversation outside of that climb where you do the whole thing.

00:38:02.20
Alex
Okay, that’s really helpful.

00:38:04.06
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:38:04.25
Alex
It’s like there’s these moments where we have our tools to address it in the moment. And if it’s bigger than that moment can handle, it needs to be its own wrapped up conversation at another time.

00:38:15.32
Neely Quinn
Yeah, which can be really scary. Yeah.

00:38:17.45
Alex
Yeah.

00:38:17.49
Neely Quinn
and ah And a lot of people are like, I don’t want to have this conversation because I’m going I don’t think I can do it productively. I’m going to get mad. I’m going to blow up. I’m going to they’re not going to be able to do like they don’t think it’s possible.

00:38:28.81
Neely Quinn
So they don’t ever have the conversation.

00:38:31.00
Alex
Oh, yeah.

00:38:31.19
Neely Quinn
And that’s where this is so useful, like nonviolent communication, dear man. It’s like, hey, when I’m climbing and you are giving me this advice, I think that it’s because you are trying to help me.

00:38:38.57
Alex
Thank you.

00:38:47.03
Neely Quinn
And I appreciate that. And you don’t even have to say that because that’s like making assumptions about what they’re doing. but If you know that’s the case, then you can put that in there as a fact. But it’s like when that happens, I feel,

00:39:01.56
Neely Quinn
frustrated and i feel, um I don’t know how else a person would feel, ah but like not free to do my own exploration.

00:39:14.74
Neely Quinn
And what I really want is to just explore up there. Cause this is one of the only times in my life where I just get to freely explore on my own. And I love that process.

00:39:25.85
Neely Quinn
my request for you is, can you not give me beta when I’m climbing unless I explicitly ask for it?

00:39:33.24
Alex
Yeah.

00:39:33.62
Neely Quinn
And that would help.

00:39:33.85
Alex
Okay. so a very clear request.

00:39:34.78
Neely Quinn
And very, yeah. And very importantly, this would help me have a really good time up there and make it so that I’m not frustrated with you when I come down.

00:39:46.74
Alex
Oh, that’s huge.

00:39:47.96
Neely Quinn
Yeah. So it’s like the re the, the reinforcement of why they would want to do that for you.

00:39:54.09
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:39:55.64
Neely Quinn
And then they can say like, well, but sometimes it just takes you forever to get up a thing. And I really want to move on to the next thing. And then they can make a compromise. Like, okay, if you’re really feeling like that, can you just ask me, like, is it okay if I give you a little bit of beta to make this go faster? Because we’re almost out of time. The sun’s coming, whatever.

00:40:16.31
Neely Quinn
Okay, fine. Sometimes we can do that.

00:40:18.52
Alex
Yeah.

00:40:19.64
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:40:20.46
Alex
Ooh, which is, that’s another big one, right? Is like time spent doing things. That seems to be a constant conflict I see or, or have experienced is like, how much time do I have to spend on this climb without affecting my partner’s day?

00:40:35.35
Neely Quinn
Yeah. But how do you see that show up?

00:40:38.87
Alex
Well, it happens a lot when people start projecting and they’ve gone from um spending 10 to 20 minutes on a climb and feeling self-conscious about that time to actually like my partner and I, when we get on a project for the first time, it’s normally at least an hour 90 minutes.

00:40:58.46
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:40:59.26
Alex
And that takes some pre-conversation and navigating so that a the partner belaying knows what they’re signing up for. b the climber doesn’t feel um constantly rushed or distracted by the thought that I’m taking too long.

00:41:17.53
Alex
I’m not supposed to be here.

00:41:19.19
Neely Quinn
h

00:41:20.06
Alex
So my recommendation is always just actually talk about it. How much time do you have? And and if it’s a high if it’s a busy environment, that can be discussed between strangers too. It’s like, I want to take 30 minutes.

00:41:38.07
Alex
Like my plan is to take up to 30 minutes. i’ll set I’ll set a timer. I’ll come down in 30 minutes.

00:41:43.10
Neely Quinn
Yes.

00:41:44.66
Alex
Yeah.

00:41:44.63
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Honestly, I think that’s the solution right there. And I know that you teach people this. I’ve seen you do it. I have taken cues from you about it, honestly.

00:41:56.60
Neely Quinn
And I think that when I know that when you say it to clients, sometimes they’re probably like, oh, that’s a great idea. I never thought about that.

00:42:04.86
Alex
Yeah. Yes. And it could be hard to implement because it it does open up the conversation. i think a ah recent one I had and my partner and I actually needed this was a handle in the moment situation.

00:42:20.06
Alex
But I was feeling like i was being rushed to get on climbs a little bit. Because I take forever, especially if I have performance anxiety, like I’m literally super slow.

00:42:30.07
Neely Quinn
it

00:42:31.13
Alex
Like you’ve seen this.

00:42:31.61
Neely Quinn
It’s true. Yeah.

00:42:32.54
Alex
It is so true. But it’s because I’m feeling anxious and I need to like come into myself a little bit. And that time can be really important for me. So I actually said this time is really important for me. Nobody’s waiting for the climb. It’s part of my time on the climb.

00:42:50.98
Alex
Like, I’m not, like, I’m giving this a sunburn. I’m going to be up there for, I’m climbing until I fall off. It’s going to take four and a half minutes to six minutes.

00:42:59.35
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:43:00.41
Alex
This time is part of my go. I need this.

00:43:03.92
Neely Quinn
I love that.

00:43:04.66
Alex
And that really helped. And it really helped him because then he didn’t feel like I would, m I don’t know.

00:43:12.50
Neely Quinn
Like you were wasting time.

00:43:13.53
Alex
Yeah, I don’t want to say what I think he was thinking, but wasting time.

00:43:16.25
Neely Quinn
Yeah. that’s fair Yeah.

00:43:17.86
Alex
Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:18.22
Neely Quinn
No, that’s, and that took you being confident about your process.

00:43:24.38
Alex
Yes, but it was also realizing that that process is important to me.

00:43:25.40
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:43:30.10
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:31.51
Alex
Yeah.

00:43:32.25
Neely Quinn
Yeah, owning it and just being like, this is my.

00:43:33.72
Alex
And and like ah getting to the point of feeling enough pressure about it that I felt like I had to react.

00:43:39.74
Neely Quinn
Mm hmm.

00:43:40.09
Alex
I had to say something.

00:43:41.69
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. And how did that go?

00:43:44.12
Alex
Fine.

00:43:45.21
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:43:46.17
Alex
Yeah, like surprisingly fine. because Yeah, i was the thing i was so, yeah, scared to say was fine.

00:43:53.02
Neely Quinn
Yeah, probably. Partly. i don’t know, because you were confident, you knew what you needed and you asked for it.

00:43:59.26
Alex
Yeah.

00:43:59.93
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Good.

00:44:01.56
Alex
I like it.

00:44:02.33
Neely Quinn
Yeah, that’s great.

00:44:03.19
Alex
What about belay trust issues? I feel this is huge.

00:44:05.34
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You probably see this a lot. Tell me.

00:44:09.53
Alex
I experience it a lot too.

00:44:11.38
Neely Quinn
oh also.

00:44:12.70
Alex
Well, because my partner and i have a significant weight difference. And so in our climbing together over the last 10 years now, it’s been a big topic for us in terms of creating a safe, supported environment is often about like soft catches, hard catches, needing a needing to adjust like the rock bag or something if I’m belaying him so he feels safe to fall. Yeah.

00:44:43.26
Alex
using something like an omer rock bag so he feels he can fall instead of not and me when I would get a hard catch previously i would get scared and I would go inside myself and I would want down and I would say down and I wouldn’t you know there was no dialogue this is previous and it was just done down and then I would give him the silent treatment for a couple hours and

00:44:59.77
Neely Quinn
Yes.

00:45:11.93
Neely Quinn
Okay.

00:45:12.31
Alex
That creates an unpleasant environment, right? Because, and then it made him so afraid to belay me that the chance of getting hard catches was like way higher.

00:45:23.26
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:45:24.25
Alex
Yeah. And um that had a change and it had a change for me. He was willing to do the work to learn how to give me soft catches and to have dialogue, but I wasn’t, I was so reactive about it that it, there was no space, right? Yeah.

00:45:41.27
Alex
Yeah.

00:45:41.85
Neely Quinn
So then what did you guys do?

00:45:44.98
Alex
Um, I mean, I had the realization when I gave a small child a super hard catch and like, I was like, oh, I’m so sorry. Can you go take that fall again so I can learn how to give you a soft catch there?

00:45:56.81
Alex
And I was like, I’ve never given him this opportunity ever, ever.

00:46:00.49
Neely Quinn
Oh, wow. Okay.

00:46:01.56
Alex
Yeah. And so in our warmups, I started being like, can we practice soft catches today? I’ll just like take a fall and then can we do this fall over until it’s awesome? And then we created dialogue in around it. And now it’s just really natural. So like in Rifle last weekend, I took a fall. He was like, how was that? and I was like, hard, but I’m alive.

00:46:22.36
Alex
Like it was fine. and then And then it was like, okay, I could do it better the next time. Let’s do it again.

00:46:27.64
Neely Quinn
Okay.

00:46:27.74
Alex
Because it wasn’t like hard, like I slammed into the wall. Like those don’t really exist for us anymore. It was just like, oh, I would like it softer, but it was fine.

00:46:36.91
Neely Quinn
Uh-huh.

00:46:38.36
Alex
Yeah. and And we have dialogue about it. And I take a fall multiple times sometimes in an area until we nail it. And then I’m like, that feels amazing. I feel totally confident falling here now.

00:46:51.00
Neely Quinn
Okay.

00:46:51.99
Alex
And there’s also just some forgiveness.

00:46:51.99
Neely Quinn
That’s great.

00:46:54.47
Alex
Like if I’m not ready to take up a bunch of slack and sit down right away and he like falls too far away from the wall and needs to now boink or I get a slightly hard catch, there’s there’s just more, there’s more understanding and acceptance too.

00:47:14.20
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. I’m assuming that’s partly because you guys do have this open dialogue, so there’s less resentment around it.

00:47:21.66
Alex
Well, now there’s a sorry. Like, oh, shoot.

00:47:24.04
Neely Quinn
Uh, uh-huh.

00:47:26.33
Alex
Sorry. I know you fell farther than you needed to. I’ll keep you tighter next time.

00:47:30.87
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Instead of it being like, I didn’t do anything wrong. It was fine.

00:47:34.91
Alex
Yeah. And he feels comfortable being like, can you keep me extra tight here?

00:47:38.84
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:47:39.61
Alex
And I don’t take that personally. I’m just like, yes, I get it.

00:47:43.00
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. This is good job. I’m really proud of you guys.

00:47:47.51
Alex
Well, it’s taken 10 years.

00:47:49.08
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:47:49.59
Alex
we have We’ve gotten there. We love each other, you know, make it work.

00:47:53.02
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:47:54.04
Alex
Yeah.

00:47:54.30
Neely Quinn
Well, and it’s.

00:47:56.22
Alex
It hasn’t taken 10 years. We had like a year and a half of not talking about it at all until it became a big enough issue. We had to address it.

00:48:03.13
Neely Quinn
oh so you’ve been doing this for many years.

00:48:03.89
Alex
That’s what happened. Yeah.

00:48:05.69
Neely Quinn
Okay. Okay. Yeah, that’s great. um Honestly, I feel really lucky because Seth is like, I think he’s the world’s best belayer and he has never given me a hard catch.

00:48:19.03
Neely Quinn
Knock on wood. But we’ve definitely had to talk about belaying. And and i I wonder if it’s harder sometimes with your partner to talk about these things than with a newer partner who’s a friend.

00:48:34.20
Alex
I found it 100% harder. i could talk about this with a stranger or somebody new playing me. So it’s so easy for me to do.

00:48:42.17
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And it’s not easy for a lot of people. Like I remember i went climb, I went, I was climbing in rifle with James Lucas a lot.

00:48:46.42
Alex
Yeah.

00:48:52.70
Neely Quinn
And the first, and if you’re listening to this, James, I’m sure you remember this, but I was like, look, James, this is the talk I give every new Blair where this is how I like to be. I actually say, how do you, how are you going to catch me if I fall?

00:49:07.74
Neely Quinn
And I want to hear, i’m going to stand in, you know, close to the wall and I’m going to jump when you fall. I’m going to not keep a,

00:49:15.10
Alex
You don’t want to hear. I’m going to stand 30 feet from the wall and give you a big loop of slack so that I give you a soft cut. Yeah.

00:49:21.53
Neely Quinn
Yeah, well, because a lot of people learned that with smaller people, you just give a lot of slack. And then the jumping happens like naturally.

00:49:27.32
Alex
Yeah.

00:49:31.48
Neely Quinn
But that’s just dumb. But anyway, so I said to him, how are you going do this? He explained I was fine with his answer. And then I said, we’re going to do some practice falls. Is that OK with you? Because I want to calibrate to each other’s weight.

00:49:46.01
Neely Quinn
And he said, totally fine.

00:49:46.26
Alex
Yeah.

00:49:47.70
Neely Quinn
We did it. It was fun. It was productive. And he got to know my weight. And then I felt confident. ah So I absolutely recommend that people do that. But when it’s your husband or your wife or your partner whatever, then Yeah, it can be a lot more difficult, especially if you let this go for years and you’re just like don’t know how to bring it up.

00:50:12.02
Neely Quinn
So it’s the same conversation that you guys had, which is just like when I fell today, it hurt. My ankle hurts now or it could have been much worse if it it had been, you know, if I had landed like this and i want to feel safe.

00:50:31.64
Neely Quinn
but but you know climbing with you because you’re really important to me and I want to climb with you and I love being with you. And can we take some practice falls and I can tell you how I want to be belayed and you can learn and I can learn if you have, you know, requests of me for your belaying.

00:50:52.95
Neely Quinn
And if they say yes, then that’s great. You’re off to a good start. And then you just be honest.

00:50:58.90
Alex
Yeah, and then you just do the work.

00:50:59.10
Neely Quinn
Like, Yeah. And you you try really hard to not be passive aggressive when they do give you that hard catch at first. Like you said, well, it was kind of hard, but I’m alive, which is a little bit passive aggressive.

00:51:15.54
Alex
Yeah.

00:51:15.51
Neely Quinn
and they have to read between the lines. You could just say it was a little bit hard. Can we try again? You know, like that’s just so direct.

00:51:21.87
Alex
Mm, see that’s so helpful. That’s such good coaching. Because I want to ask you about passive aggressiveness in general, because that’s like a default thing for me that I, it’s so natural for me to be passive aggressive.

00:51:25.24
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:51:30.30
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:51:34.78
Alex
What is it? How do we be less of it? And how do you see it in climbing relationships be kind of toxic?

00:51:41.37
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I mean, i think it happens a lot. And it’s just this, it just stems from us not feeling free to ask for what we want. And anybody, it’s not just women, although women are definitely taught more from a very young age that we should be submissive, we should be quiet, and we should not cause trouble.

00:52:05.69
Neely Quinn
And so when we have a request that we want to make and we feel squelched about it, that can be extremely frustrating. And that frustration can come out in these passive aggressive remarks.

00:52:21.37
Neely Quinn
So it’s just a matter of like owning what you want and understanding that you can say it in a way that’s fair to everybody.

00:52:30.97
Alex
And it’s usually just taking something off of the statement, like my statement. That was hard, but I’m alive.

00:52:39.54
Neely Quinn
Right.

00:52:40.50
Alex
Like, I think I’m softening the statement, in ah but I think the result is actually it’s more passive aggressive than I even realized.

00:52:51.48
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Can you, can you think of any other passive aggressive of statements that you’ve made?

00:52:57.81
Alex
Um, now that you ask, no, but give me give my subconscious time. We can move on.

00:53:03.16
Neely Quinn
ah Okay.

00:53:03.46
Alex
And if something comes up.

00:53:03.60
Neely Quinn
Well, I just thought of something like,

00:53:06.17
Alex
Oh, yeah.

00:53:06.74
Neely Quinn
um I remember in Italy, i really wanted to top rope my warmup and Seth was like, you should just lead it. It’s really good. you should just lead it.

00:53:19.77
Neely Quinn
And then i I was like, okay, I guess so. Which was passive aggressive in itself because what I wanted was to say, no, I don’t want to, but I didn’t feel like I could because I was ashamed.

00:53:31.22
Alex
Oh, see, I would never think of that as passive aggressive. And now I do. Like you just changed my brain.

00:53:34.97
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the whole time I was up there, I was being a bitch, like passive aggressive to the max.

00:53:45.25
Neely Quinn
Like, well, the, the hold is you just go up right hand. You know, he’d say that me and I’d be like, well, you can go up right. Cause you’re tall or whatever.

00:53:53.78
Alex
Okay. Okay.

00:53:55.80
Neely Quinn
And, uh, we We got into a huge fight that day because of my passive aggressiveness. And all I needed to say was, i am going to top rope this. I’m not, I don’t feel like leading it. And I didn’t even need to say it like that. I would just say like, no, I will top rope and then top rope, you know?

00:54:15.70
Neely Quinn
And that’s what I learned from that.

00:54:15.77
Alex
Yeah.

00:54:16.98
Neely Quinn
And it’s, it’s like drastically,

00:54:19.16
Alex
The outcome would have changed significantly. And the satisfaction score of the day for both of you would have been way higher.

00:54:27.83
Neely Quinn
Yeah, exactly. So, and I wouldn’t have had to use my wimpy stick on the warmup. It’s just it’s like, really?

00:54:34.87
Alex
Which, as great of a tool as it is never feels great. Yeah.

00:54:38.74
Neely Quinn
No, it never feels great.

00:54:39.18
Alex
Yeah.

00:54:40.30
Neely Quinn
And, and so sometimes recognizing that you’re being passive aggressive and understanding that it’s usually coming from having a desire and not allowing yourself that desire.

00:54:53.14
Alex
Okay. That’s so helpful.

00:54:54.53
Neely Quinn
There’s something along those lines.

00:54:57.08
Alex
Yeah.

00:54:58.23
Neely Quinn
So this, I think that this, uh, this goes perfectly into one person consistently sacrificing their goals because that can happen with that too, where like, i

00:54:58.30
Alex
Brilliant.

00:55:14.39
Neely Quinn
I want to go to this area today. Well, I want to go to this area today. And the other person, a being like, okay, fine.

00:55:26.73
Neely Quinn
We can go to that area. Fine. but You can have what you want. You always get what you want. And you know like and it might not even be being said, but it’s being thought.

00:55:31.67
Alex
Okay. Yep.

00:55:35.58
Neely Quinn
And it’s like them sacrificing their goals because they don’t want to ask for what they, they don’t want to demand anything. And they don’t know how to make compromises because they’re not even willing to ask again, once it’s shut down, even once, you know what i mean?

00:55:53.81
Alex
yep

00:55:55.58
Neely Quinn
And we know a lot of clients who have this issue and, and it’s kind of a learned skill to just be like, why is it important to me that I do this?

00:56:07.11
Neely Quinn
Cause it’s easy to just be like, oh, this doesn’t matter to me. This matters more that this person is happy.

00:56:12.57
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:56:12.65
Neely Quinn
But when you get into like, why is it important that I go to this climb? Well, because I want to see progression in my climbing. And I want to challenge myself on this particular route.

00:56:24.29
Neely Quinn
And I really like this route and the experience I have on it is fulfilling and meaningful. And I want to take up time. And so being being grounded in that and knowing your wants and needs will help you then be like, no, how can we compromise?

00:56:43.93
Alex
Yeah.

00:56:45.34
Neely Quinn
Do you have anything to add?

00:56:47.93
Alex
Yeah, it comes up a lot. And I feel like i I don’t want to go out too far on the limb here, but I would say that in a lot of partner dynamics, there’s usually the backseat support role person and the main role person.

00:57:04.28
Alex
And that becomes a really comfortable position. And then resentment builds it around it. And a lot of kind of toxic ways of being together stem from that.

00:57:16.25
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:57:17.27
Alex
And it could go on for a really long time.

00:57:20.47
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And one thing that just occurred to me is it’s often like the stronger person gets their way.

00:57:27.42
Alex
Yeah.

00:57:27.51
Neely Quinn
And this happens even with Seth and me. I, I will find myself taking the backseat. I’m like, his climbing is more important than mine because he’s so much stronger and, you know, yeah.

00:57:37.85
Alex
Mm-hmm. It’s so easy to do that. and they And he might have never, ever asked for that, but then all of a sudden that role has been assigned.

00:57:44.57
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s kind of a given what’s going to happen.

00:57:50.22
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:57:51.19
Neely Quinn
Even if when you bring it up, they’re like, oh, I want to support you. What do you want to do?

00:57:57.72
Alex
Yeah.

00:57:59.10
Neely Quinn
So it’s just about once again.

00:58:00.70
Alex
I mean, I’ve had over the last however many years I’ve been coaching, I’ve had so many

00:58:08.95
Alex
significant others purchase coaching for their partner because they’re like, they I can tell they really want to get better, but they’re not doing anything about it. Like, I don’t know what to do. like

00:58:21.53
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:58:21.59
Alex
like I don’t know how to support them. They’re always just coming out and belaying me and doing stuff, right? Like, that they haven’t directly said that, but that’s the under that’s in the message. that That’s the…

00:58:31.58
Neely Quinn
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think it’s super common. One person teaches the other person, you know, how to climb, they get into it, but they, they take a submissive role to that person forever.

00:58:43.96
Alex
So what do you, how, how do you recommend people might resolve this with their partner if they’re experiencing it? Or if they’re just now having an aha that they are in that position?

00:58:51.86
Neely Quinn
ah just

00:58:55.22
Neely Quinn
Well, first of all, it’s about getting your own priorities, goals, and values about climbing clear. What do I want?

00:59:01.79
Alex
Yeah.

00:59:02.64
Neely Quinn
Because these people often have a hard time even going to that place. Like, what do I want with climbing?

00:59:09.14
Alex
Mm-hmm.

00:59:09.59
Neely Quinn
Write it down. Talk about it. Hire a coach. Talk to somebody about what is important to you, what your goals are. And goals can often concretize this for people because like if you have a goal and you know how to work toward it, it’s much easier to be like, hey, this is my goal and this is how I’m going to work toward it.

00:59:29.70
Neely Quinn
Will you support me in that?

00:59:31.67
Alex
Yeah. Okay.

00:59:33.50
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:59:34.01
Alex
That seems huge. Something that came up for me in that too is, um,

00:59:44.02
Alex
it, Oh, hold on. I had the thought and then I lost the thought, but essentially it was something around, um, asking what, like, okay, here it is. So,

00:59:57.72
Alex
It’s really important for me so I can have more self-agency in my day if I ask my partner, what do you want out of today? I want to know what my partner wants because if I don’t, I’m going to create a story about what he wants out of his day.

01:00:15.48
Alex
And then I’m going to try and support that story instead of that he wants two goes on his project and he wants to warm up on this wall.

01:00:18.39
Neely Quinn
h

01:00:24.28
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:00:24.82
Alex
Like I will try and like be like, well, how can I make you have the best day I think you want?

01:00:29.66
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:00:30.39
Alex
You know what I’m saying?

01:00:30.36
Neely Quinn
I mean.

01:00:31.07
Alex
So like, so I’m just like, what would, what do you want to have happen today? And then what happens after that is then I say, this is what I want to have happen today.

01:00:39.68
Neely Quinn
huh

01:00:40.12
Alex
So I’m like, what do you want out of that? Even if we were to go climbing, I’d be like, what do you want out of your session? Like I asked that a lot.

01:00:47.48
Neely Quinn
Yeah, definitely.

01:00:49.24
Alex
So it’s like a planning thing of then like, okay, well then it gives you space to then be like, this is what I want. I want to have two goes on my project to the top around this time.

01:01:00.09
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And I think that an important part of that is you going into it, knowing what you want.

01:01:06.26
Alex
Right.

01:01:07.10
Neely Quinn
which is a step that a lot of people skip.

01:01:07.29
Alex
Yeah.

01:01:10.97
Neely Quinn
You go in.

01:01:11.10
Alex
Yeah. Cause I’m really asking because I know what I want and I want to get around to saying it.

01:01:15.48
Neely Quinn
Yeah, but a lot of people don’t.

01:01:15.58
Alex
Yeah. Okay.

01:01:17.18
Neely Quinn
They would ask the question and they would just be like, oh, well, I guess that sounds fun, but it’s not actually aligning with their goals and values.

01:01:17.40
Alex
Okay.

01:01:24.44
Alex
Yeah.

01:01:27.03
Alex
This comes up a lot for me with clients who are planning a trip with a group of people.

01:01:32.45
Neely Quinn
Yep.

01:01:33.43
Alex
And my recommendation is always… Before you go on the trip, really try and say what you want out of the trip. I want to be able to go to a climb more than once. I want to go to a different crag every day. I want to dot, dot. dot And I noticed that in a lot of trips, people have these conversations on the trip, not before the trip.

01:02:01.17
Alex
And I imagine, do you think that’s valid that it just kind of needs to happen before?

01:02:01.62
Neely Quinn
Yep.

01:02:06.81
Neely Quinn
For sure. Because then you can scour the guidebook and figure out where you want to go and how you want to spend your time. So you’re not spending like half your trip trying to make plans and going with the flow and not getting what you want out of your very expensive trip that you took time off of work for.

01:02:19.42
Alex
Yeah.

01:02:28.25
Alex
Yeah. Thank you. Yes. And okay. One final question on this that I have for you is have you personally experienced the, if somebody is climbing harder, I’m going to prioritize that because they’re climbing harder. And what did you do about that?

01:02:43.67
Alex
Or what do you do about that? How do you change that kind of hierarchy way of thinking?

01:02:49.53
Neely Quinn
I mean, yes. i I don’t know how ah the The only way to change it is to get, again, really clear about what you do want. Like, if I’m thinking about a specific trip, when we went to Spain 2019, we were at this crag that was so advanced, like way above my pay grade.

01:03:14.62
Neely Quinn
And there were three climbs there that I could even touch. And i was bored and i was very challenged and Seth was really doing well on this fourteen a And so I was like, well, this is where we’re going.

01:03:31.54
Neely Quinn
Like, we’re not going to drive anywhere to go anywhere else. I’m just going to sacrifice to let Seth do this. And he did end up sending, but I’m,

01:03:39.56
Alex
Yeah.

01:03:43.00
Neely Quinn
I didn’t feel great about that trip. um And I think if… And sometimes you just make the choice. Like, this trip is now about Seth because I want it more for him than I want it for myself. Or i could have made compromises and been like, I want to spend three days going to Julia or something.

01:04:07.96
Alex
yeah

01:04:08.50
Neely Quinn
So it’s just about being clear about it so that you’re not then acting resentful.

01:04:13.83
Alex
Resentful. Okay.

01:04:15.80
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:04:16.95
Alex
Yeah. Because I find that in my climbing a lot. There are days where I’m like, my best day today is supporting my partner.

01:04:24.06
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:04:25.34
Alex
I don’t always need to be like, no, for this to be a good day, I need it to be equal and fair at all times. Like I’ve had to really work hard to dismantle that way of thinking in my brain to being like, no, it’s okay to have times where like somebody –

01:04:36.89
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:04:44.06
Alex
is yeah, they’re in a position where a little extra support would be awesome for them. And giving that is actually really awesome sometimes.

01:04:50.52
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:04:53.50
Neely Quinn
Yeah. It’s super meaningful. I mean, the last week or maybe two of our trip to Italy, i was, I didn’t care about climbing anymore. And, and a lot of people would be like, i don’t want to go up to the crag, but I went up there every day, every other day, because Seth is like 100% in his element when he’s climbing on European limestone.

01:05:14.30
Neely Quinn
I was definitely not going to take that away from him. And It makes me happy seeing him happy.

01:05:19.32
Alex
Yeah.

01:05:19.48
Neely Quinn
So I just went up there and like top roped on turds and like ah watched him climb.

01:05:23.99
Alex
So I think that’s such a cool distinction. We’re not saying like you always have to have strong goals and be equally. So it’s like, a no, but it needs to be clear, the understanding and the communication and the, it’s hard to talk about these things.

01:05:34.06
Neely Quinn
Mm hmm.

01:05:39.58
Neely Quinn
Yeah, it’s super hard and it’s hard to know yourself. It’s hard to get clear with yourself.

01:05:42.10
Alex
Yeah.

01:05:44.18
Neely Quinn
um

01:05:44.34
Alex
Yeah. Yeah.

01:05:45.11
Neely Quinn
One other one I like wanted to talk about was competition between partners.

01:05:50.65
Alex
Ooh.

01:05:50.65
Neely Quinn
Do you see this with your clients?

01:05:52.95
Alex
Yeah, all the time.

01:05:56.31
Neely Quinn
How does it play out?

01:05:58.55
Alex
um I mean, it’s often not maladaptive. there’s There’s good competition between partners, but it’s often one-sided.

01:06:09.85
Alex
Somebody is feeling competitive feelings towards the other that is not then reciprocated or maybe even known by the other person. or the other person is sensing it, but in a I don’t know how to interpret this feeling way.

01:06:25.59
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:06:26.49
Alex
Yeah. And… um

01:06:31.32
Alex
I think it can really lower that overall satisfaction score of climbing trips. Like, uh, ego is not your amigo.

01:06:43.10
Alex
I just heard that, uh, recently. And I got so happy. It was in the dark wizard about Dean Potter on HBO.

01:06:49.11
Neely Quinn
Oh, nice.

01:06:50.01
Alex
And they talked actually a lot about his, um, kind of the dark side of his competitiveness in that, which I found pretty interesting. Um, Yeah, it can be pretty dang toxic.

01:07:03.67
Alex
And it could be awesome and fun and enriching experiences. for It can go either way, right? but But I think it exists.

01:07:13.11
Neely Quinn
yeah Yeah, it can be the kind of thing where… like Natalia Grossman actually talked about this in my interview with her last year. She was like climbing with guys.

01:07:25.34
Neely Quinn
And I’m sorry if I’m not paraphrasing this right, but basically like it’s climbing with guys. The competition is on the table. like They feed off of each other and they can congratulate each other really easily.

01:07:36.90
Alex
Yeah.

01:07:37.75
Neely Quinn
And she was like, but climbing with a lot of women, especially like elite women, It’s ah hidden and it’s not really talked about.

01:07:45.53
Alex
Yeah,

01:07:46.94
Neely Quinn
And so it makes things toxic. She didn’t say toxic, but it’s kind of like that.

01:07:50.49
Alex
yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah

01:07:52.47
Neely Quinn
And I’ve seen this with friends where it really affects their relationship in general um when they’re competitive with each other. Like one person will do a thing and then it’s the other person’s goal in life to do that thing.

01:08:09.72
Neely Quinn
you know, so that they can know that they are worthy of that person or that they’re as good as and deserving of respect from the community or whatever. They’re just using the person as sort of a measure

01:08:23.54
Alex
Yeah.

01:08:23.77
Neely Quinn
and That can be hard on the the person the other person because um they’re they’re kind of like, well, do you see my accomplishment though? like Can you really see and witness me in this?

01:08:40.54
Neely Quinn
Or are you only seeing it as a reflection of you? And that can that’s why it’s toxic because you just want to like be able to celebrate with each other.

01:08:47.47
Alex
That’s profound. And to be seen. We all just want to be seen.

01:08:53.34
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

01:08:54.42
Alex
I know that I have avoided potentially awesome climbing partnerships and relationships that would have actually been really great for me because I sensed competition and got scared of it and ran away. It was like, nope, shutting that down. Don’t want to climb with this person.

01:09:12.73
Alex
I feel there’s competition here.

01:09:16.63
Neely Quinn
You mean like from your side or from their side?

01:09:19.10
Alex
From both maybe. Yeah. From theirs or from mine or just from both. Like they’re like when i when I’ve sensed that in the past with some partnerships, I’ve been like, this feels scary out.

01:09:30.07
Alex
I would rather climb with a stronger dude who I don’t feel this way about.

01:09:33.72
Neely Quinn
Which is so much easier. You’re like, you’re basically a different species.

01:09:35.86
Alex
It’s so much easier.

01:09:37.37
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:09:37.59
Alex
Like, it’s not hard for me at all. but’ like But the moment I start climbing with ladies who are around my size or or not, just ladies in general, like, I have to do work.

01:09:39.55
Neely Quinn
Hmm.

01:09:46.83
Alex
Like, there’s more work that has to be done in managing some internal feels.

01:09:52.79
Neely Quinn
Yeah, there is. And I think it’s super interesting. i wrote a whole thing about this, about how like in team sports, where’re it’s ground into us, be competitive, like win.

01:10:05.56
Neely Quinn
The goal is to beat this team or this person. And with climbing, it’s like taboo to even think those things. I want to beat this person. And that’s basically what we’re out there doing is like we’re sending a thing. And if we send a thing and another person doesn’t, we win.

01:10:27.42
Neely Quinn
And I mean, I’m not, yeah, exactly.

01:10:28.47
Alex
That is the fine print. Yeah, but it is fine print. Yeah.

01:10:33.37
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And everybody’s like, no, no, it’s just about my process and blah, blah, blah. But like the way that we do metrics in this society, like it’s just, that’s the way it boils down.

01:10:45.05
Alex
And that’s why we want to climb harder grades in a lot of ways. It’s like, it means that I am now climbing harder dot, dot, dot.

01:10:49.10
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve worked my way up the hierarchy. Yeah, exactly.

01:10:54.10
Alex
Yeah.

01:10:55.26
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And so I think that the the one really cool thing that you can do is just like accept that. Just confront It it exists.

01:11:06.42
Neely Quinn
This is a part of me. It doesn’t make me a bad person.

01:11:09.73
Alex
Mm-hmm.

01:11:09.99
Neely Quinn
There’s nothing wrong with me. It’s very human to compete.

01:11:13.07
Alex
Mm-hmm.

01:11:14.00
Neely Quinn
That’s how we survive. And if we can just be more open with it, ah with ourselves, I feel like there’s, there can be more acceptance. And I don’t really know exactly what that looks like, but it’s like, yeah, I want to be better than, and I’m okay with not, like, I’m not so attached to it that it means everything to me.

01:11:38.74
Alex
And I’m still going to celebrate this person’s success.

01:11:41.37
Neely Quinn
Exactly. And one of the biggest things that I had to learn was I was comparing myself to a specific friend.

01:11:42.93
Alex
Yeah.

01:11:50.14
Neely Quinn
And when she would have success, I would take it personally. And I hated that about myself. I did. I hated it It really bothered me because I just wanted to, like you said, be able to celebrate her because she’s my friend.

01:12:06.14
Alex
Mm-hmm.

01:12:07.70
Neely Quinn
And finally, I had to understand that like her climbing actually didn’t have anything to do with mine when I looked at it closely. It really doesn’t.

01:12:19.19
Alex
Yeah.

01:12:19.22
Neely Quinn
And so while I want to be as good as or better than because it makes me feel like I belong more in this community, what she’s doing is completely separate than what I’m doing.

01:12:32.15
Alex
Yeah.

01:12:33.34
Neely Quinn
And um I don’t know, I had like an epiphany during a therapy session about it. And then from that moment on, I’ve been able to 100% celebrate her.

01:12:42.17
Alex
And that must feel so good to you.

01:12:44.02
Neely Quinn
So much better.

01:12:45.43
Alex
Yeah, that’s cool.

01:12:46.23
Neely Quinn
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So that’s what this one’s a sticky subject, but I think that there’s, there is room for conversation around it. And I have coached clients to have these conversations. Like i sense that there’s competition between us and I would like to talk about it.

01:13:02.65
Neely Quinn
How does it impact you? And are you feeling the same thing? And I feel, know, a little bit anxious that when I get down to it, if I don’t send this thing, you’re not going to want to climb with me anymore.

01:13:15.39
Neely Quinn
Cause that’s often what it comes down to.

01:13:16.19
Alex
oh and that’s so like that’s so like bigger that’s connected that like builds trust and deepens a relationship getting to that point yeah

01:13:26.87
Neely Quinn
Yeah, when you can be that vulnerable. And exactly, it can deepen a relationship.

01:13:34.49
Alex
Can i bring up a couple common traps I see with competitiveness?

01:13:38.87
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:13:39.86
Alex
One is always when somebody was at a lower level and then they get to a higher level.

01:13:45.96
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:13:46.01
Alex
So like if somebody jumps in skill or ability and the previous person kind of in their brain has already like a assigned that I am the better climber.

01:13:58.97
Alex
Like i I see, I’ve seen this a lot. I’ve experienced this. how like as that person who now is like, well, why am I not getting better?

01:14:11.03
Alex
Like, what’s the, what’s the root of that? Would you say?

01:14:14.33
Neely Quinn
Well, I mean, yeah,

01:14:14.58
Alex
Cause I think it’s just that, right. It’s that insecurity of like, well, why didn’t I get better in the same amount of time?

01:14:20.12
Neely Quinn
I, I, this is what happened with you and me.

01:14:24.70
Alex
Oh yeah.

01:14:25.91
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

01:14:27.62
Alex
Oh, look at us.

01:14:27.61
Neely Quinn
Like, yeah, it is. And that was actually really hard for me because I was the better climber.

01:14:33.81
Alex
Mm-hmm.

01:14:36.95
Neely Quinn
And then you got Alex about climbing and started training your ass off being so methodical trying being so persistent with your projects and you just got really strong really quickly.

01:14:57.08
Neely Quinn
And it was surprising to me. It was, it It was like um an identity shift, right? Because you said it perfectly. The dynamic had been established, who was better and who was not.

01:15:11.03
Alex
Yeah.

01:15:12.02
Neely Quinn
And then once that gets turned over, you’re kind of like, who am I and what am I doing wrong? What’s wrong with me that my identity is now not the same?

01:15:23.22
Alex
So you never ever made me feel bad or weird or any weirdness in our relationship during that switch? How did you do that? Like, what work did you have to do to…

01:15:35.42
Neely Quinn
Well, eventually I had to understand that like, I don’t just deserve to climb harder just because I am, because I exist and I want it. I don’t, I don’t deserve to climb harder because I want to climb harder.

01:15:52.12
Neely Quinn
And I had to understand that just because you were climbing harder, it didn’t mean that I’m not worthy of value, of respect, of whatever.

01:15:59.42
Alex
Right.

01:16:03.64
Neely Quinn
And that all of my value didn’t come from my climbing accomplishments.

01:16:03.76
Alex
Mm-hmm.

01:16:08.31
Neely Quinn
And I also had to recognize how hard you had worked for that and that your brain is different than mine and that your genetics are different than mine. And that honestly, i don’t like doing what you do.

01:16:22.71
Neely Quinn
And I had to admit that to myself because I didn’t for a long time.

01:16:25.11
Alex
Yeah.

01:16:26.68
Neely Quinn
and then And then I could just be like, that badass what she’s doing.

01:16:26.77
Alex
Yeah.

01:16:31.71
Neely Quinn
I mean, I always thought that, but I could like really feel it once I separated myself from you.

01:16:38.26
Alex
yeah

01:16:39.35
Neely Quinn
But it was hard.

01:16:40.28
Alex
See, I’m kind of jealous that you got to experience all that because when I felt this way about people, again, I’ve just aversion, right? I’m just like, oh, nope, done with this friendship.

01:16:51.29
Alex
Yeah, this one’s over. um no no, but it’s okay.

01:16:53.18
Neely Quinn
Oh.

01:16:55.29
Alex
But also I’m like, that’s so cool. So it kind of is an opportunity. Yeah. if we have these relationships in our lives and if people are struggling, like it can be a really um direct avenue to just understand yourself better and to feel better about things.

01:17:10.87
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Well, and, and I think that sometimes it’s a solo ah journey and sometimes like, I never brought this up to you.

01:17:22.68
Neely Quinn
ice I dealt with it by myself and I don’t know what bringing it up to you would have done.

01:17:32.47
Neely Quinn
Even if I did it in a really fair, vulnerable way.

01:17:35.29
Alex
You would have had to do it so good to not like scare me.

01:17:37.75
Neely Quinn
Yeah, exactly.

01:17:39.61
Alex
Right.

01:17:40.02
Neely Quinn
yeah

01:17:40.76
Alex
And that’s why like, I think having a mediator like you in these conversations with people makes so much sense.

01:17:48.02
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I think so, too, because, yeah, um I think I could have brought it up to you in a fair way and just been like, asked your opinion about.

01:18:02.52
Alex
Oh, I think you could have for sure because you’re so good at it, but like it takes a lot of savvy.

01:18:02.93
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:18:08.14
Alex
like

01:18:08.44
Neely Quinn
Yeah. So, yeah. But so in couples to end that conversation, like, I think that when it’s a couple like this, it can be even harder because you’re kind of stuck with that person. Like you and I didn’t really even climb together that much.

01:18:23.19
Alex
Yeah.

01:18:23.32
Neely Quinn
So, but if you were stuck with that person and

01:18:26.78
Alex
If we did climb together a bunch, we would have had it. It would have needed to be a.

01:18:29.66
Neely Quinn
yes, definitely.

01:18:29.80
Alex
Yeah. yeah

01:18:31.51
Neely Quinn
And so, um,

01:18:32.76
Alex
And then we would have just hoped that you existed for us.

01:18:35.22
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. I do think there’s a productive conversation that can happen.

01:18:36.60
Alex
Yeah.

01:18:40.06
Neely Quinn
Um, so anyway, that’s that it does exist and it can be worked on.

01:18:46.17
Alex
So can we talk real quickly about logistics and travel stress and around trips and how that can turn us into like, I personally have had so many fights in, and not about the climbing trip, not about the climbing, but just the planning of the trips.

01:19:02.90
Neely Quinn
Oh, the planning.

01:19:04.15
Alex
The planning, because this is often like, and I see this with clients all the time.

01:19:04.13
Neely Quinn
Uh-huh.

01:19:08.54
Alex
It’s like the trip gets off to a bad start in the planning.

01:19:13.53
Neely Quinn
how so?

01:19:15.54
Alex
Who’s planning what? Is that person then responsible that it goes good? Is it not? Who’s, um where are you? Like, we’ve already talked about this a little bit, but What crags are you going to go to? How long is the trip? How much time does each person want to be? What kind of work might the other person have to do on this trip? What kind of rest days do they want versus not? Like I’ve seen so many fights over like, and I’ve had fights over wanting to rest fully and like, but saying yes and going to the crag all the time. And then I get grumpy.

01:19:48.61
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:19:51.67
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I mean…

01:19:53.75
Alex
Like how can you help people who commonly experience that with their partner? How would you help them in a session?

01:20:00.82
Neely Quinn
So the problem here is that sometimes it’s about the logistics and sometimes it’s that there are all these resentments lying underneath everything.

01:20:10.25
Alex
Oh, yeah.

01:20:11.00
Neely Quinn
And so everything else gets like Seth and I were having such bad problems in our relationship before Italy and him not engaging in the planning process, him not having any opinions about what and where he wanted to climb.

01:20:28.38
Neely Quinn
it really upset me. And it was amplified by the fact that we weren’t getting along. And then when we were there, you know, like the planning, the cooking, the shopping, the everything felt 100 times more stressful because of these underlying resentments.

01:20:48.73
Neely Quinn
And so that’s also what I want to work on with people is like, what are you really upset about? It’s not that he misplaced a thing. It’s that you’re angry that you’re not getting your needs met in this really profound way.

01:21:05.33
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:21:06.39
Alex
Yeah, that’s really well said. I think, I mean, I immediately just um felt heard and seen in that too. Like, and I feel like a lot of people, it that would be kind of an aha moment of like, oh, it isn’t about that we flew in too late to dot, dot, dot, or like he booked a late flight or she booked a late flight, whatever.

01:21:30.68
Neely Quinn
yeah

01:21:30.84
Alex
it’s It’s something else. It could be deeper. And having somebody who wants to turn over those stones with you and kind of look around is probably huge.

01:21:41.59
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. Having a willing partner is great, but sometimes the partner isn’t super willing unless they’re asked by professional.

01:21:48.89
Alex
So what do you have to say about that? Like if somebody’s listening to this podcast, they’re like, wow, I really want to work with you and I’m so afraid to ask my partner to do it.

01:21:59.83
Neely Quinn
I mean, that’s a great question. This is, it just goes back to that whole I statements, nonviolent communication. It’s like, okay, how do I ask this in a fair way? Hey, when we go on trips sometimes, or when we go climbing together, we have friction.

01:22:16.06
Neely Quinn
And it’s really important that I climb with you because I love you. And I think that we could do better. I think that we could have less friction, more ease, more fun together.

01:22:29.05
Neely Quinn
And there’s this person who’s offering coaching for climbing partners. Would you be willing to do that with me?

01:22:36.18
Alex
And they can say yes or no.

01:22:38.01
Neely Quinn
Yeah. It’s not like we have problems. There’s something wrong with us and we need help. And I found this person and we’re going.

01:22:44.63
Alex
Okay. But that’s how I like two year ago, me before some therapy would have approached the conversation.

01:22:51.22
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:22:52.15
Alex
Like.

01:22:52.31
Neely Quinn
Yeah. It’s just basic communication skills that were never taught. It’s like, I feel, I think, I feel, I notice, I feel this is my request.

01:22:58.33
Alex
Yeah.

01:23:07.16
Alex
That’s so cool that you can teach people how to communicate with those basics in a way through the lens of their climbing too.

01:23:16.20
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it, it goes into every area of our lives.

01:23:20.76
Alex
Yeah.

01:23:20.78
Neely Quinn
It’s super important. And like, I’m not perfect at this at all.

01:23:25.82
Alex
That’s what I appreciate so much about you is I never get the vibe that you’re, um, in all of our conversations we’ve had over the last however many years we’ve been having conversations, it’s never come from a judgmental place ever.

01:23:41.40
Neely Quinn
Hmm.

01:23:41.49
Alex
It’s just like objective and curious based. And I think that’s why you are so perfect to help people with this. So what else do we have?

01:23:49.58
Neely Quinn
Oh, thanks.

01:23:53.94
Neely Quinn
I think that’s basically it. And i mean, there there are a lot of different ways that climbing partners can clash or have issues that they want to work through.

01:24:06.68
Neely Quinn
We touched on some of the most common ones, but there are plenty more. And you can see that there’s not like a formula for each one. It’s like you, you get at the root of all of them and you just communicate better. And that’s what I want to help people do.

01:24:22.36
Neely Quinn
I really want to work with two people at a time and help people have like more ease, more fun and more safety too.

01:24:33.18
Neely Quinn
And less fear in climbing. Cause all of this will make that happen. I think.

01:24:38.55
Alex
Directly.

01:24:39.83
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:24:40.53
Alex
like one way ticket to all of those things you mentioned. So I have a couple of questions, which um one of them is what would a session with you actually look like?

01:24:45.50
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:24:54.53
Alex
And the next one is what could people, what would you recommend people do right now who just want to not work with you and take this podcast and then go have a better relationship with their partner?

01:25:05.78
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Okay. So working with me would be, we would, i would be on my computer. The two people would be either on the same computer on zoom or in two different rooms. And i would be asking questions to get the story, the facts, like just the facts and the emotions. And I would ask, I would help people hear each other maybe for the first time and validate each other because we gloss over validation in this society. And I think it makes a lot of problems.

01:25:39.54
Neely Quinn
So I would teach self validation and validation for others. And I would teach specific communication about, you know, their specific situation and give them homework to work on outside of it.

01:25:49.35
Alex
So.

01:25:53.27
Neely Quinn
Um, and then, What I think people can do right now, though, is take that story that I told about Seth just letting me have my emotions and letting me sit with it and do that with your partner.

01:26:11.42
Neely Quinn
In fact, like whenever you talk to anybody and they say, I’m feeling x y or z you say, yeah, that sounds hard.

01:26:24.22
Alex
Okay, that’s what to say. i want to know what to say. What do I say?

01:26:26.30
Neely Quinn
Sure. That sounds hard or that’s understandable because X, Y, Z or yeah, I hear you.

01:26:31.51
Alex
Okay.

01:26:37.46
Neely Quinn
Tell me more.

01:26:40.57
Alex
Which is very different than what?

01:26:40.73
Neely Quinn
That’s, It’s very different than, oh, well, that’s not really that big of a deal. Or, oh, I’ve had that happen too and I just blah, blah, blah.

01:26:51.38
Neely Quinn
Or, you know, like, it’s not about you.

01:26:55.19
Alex
Yeah.

01:26:55.26
Neely Quinn
It’s not about making it go away.

01:26:57.56
Alex
Right.

01:26:57.58
Neely Quinn
and And understanding that if you validate the person, it doesn’t mean that they’re going to sit there forever. Right. in it. You don’t have to sit there in it with them forever.

01:27:10.35
Neely Quinn
That’s not what’s going to happen. Validating makes it move on. Because without validation, then they sit in it.

01:27:15.62
Alex
Yep.

01:27:17.75
Neely Quinn
They just do it quietly and with shame because you’ve shamed them.

01:27:20.47
Alex
Okay. Right.

01:27:22.74
Neely Quinn
so So just try to validate and like see your your partner’s point of view and ask questions that are open-ended. And don’t be passive aggressive. Be Be direct.

01:27:38.02
Alex
Mm hmm. That’s such amazing advice. Yeah.

01:27:43.13
Neely Quinn
Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. Yeah.

01:27:45.21
Alex
I mean, that would make climbing everywhere I’ve ever climbed more peaceful for me if people did that. Those three things. Yeah, because often I’m very put off by the toxic way people are talking to each other.

01:28:00.89
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:28:01.53
Alex
i get really like frazzled by it. And i just imagined while you were saying those things, what it would feel like to be around somebody who is talking to each other that way. i was like, oh, that would be so awesome.

01:28:14.87
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And you know what I’ve learned last thing through all of my coaching sessions with people is like, what happens when I say that makes so much sense that you would feel this way because A, B, and C, they almost never sit there and just cry ever. They don’t ever. What they do is they say, yeah, it does make sense.

01:28:40.50
Neely Quinn
And this is what I’m going to do going forward. Or, and this is what I have control over.

01:28:48.28
Alex
Action.

01:28:48.66
Neely Quinn
and this is what I don’t. Yes, exactly. it like op It’s like a key that opens up possibility for them.

01:28:55.51
Alex
Mm-hmm.

01:28:56.00
Neely Quinn
It’s amazing every time.

01:28:58.46
Alex
That’s eye-opening to me, actually. That’s really cool. Because that’s what I’m afraid of.

01:29:03.77
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

01:29:04.53
Alex
I’m afraid of opening up vulnerability and then getting, like, uncomfortable emotion for a long period of time. And then if you’re like, but that doesn’t actually happen all the time. Like, actually, it’s the opposite.

01:29:14.04
Neely Quinn
No. Yeah. I mean, unless the person is like clinically depressed and in which case they need help.

01:29:20.12
Alex
Sure, but even that, like… That’s where even having a mediator or somebody being like, I recommend you get seen or whatever.

01:29:28.79
Neely Quinn
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

01:29:30.49
Alex
Yeah.

01:29:31.10
Neely Quinn
Okay.

01:29:32.50
Alex
Anything else you would like to add?

01:29:34.62
Neely Quinn
No, I think that’s it. I really, I did too.

01:29:36.34
Alex
I love this conversation.

01:29:38.45
Neely Quinn
Obviously this is my favorite topic. So thank you for, ah doing this with me. I appreciate it. And thanks also for sharing about your own situations.

01:29:44.60
Alex
Yeah.

01:29:47.22
Neely Quinn
I think it’s super helpful for people hear both of us talk about that.

01:29:50.16
Alex
It’s pretty easy for me to share. Sharing is caring.

01:29:51.93
Neely Quinn
yeah yeah

01:29:54.33
Alex
Anyway.

01:29:56.08
Neely Quinn
Uh, an ego is not your amigo.

01:29:58.01
Alex
No, not at all. um Okay. Thank you, Neely. And yeah, I’m excited. Everybody should work with Neely on this.

01:30:04.98
Neely Quinn
All right.

01:30:06.47
Alex
If you even have a curiosity about it, can they reach out to you you to ask if what their questions might be or yeah.

01:30:12.31
Neely Quinn
Yeah. You can always reach out at info at training beta.com or just go to my website at training beta.com slash mindset for more information.

01:30:23.25
Alex
Cool.

01:30:23.67
Neely Quinn
Okay. Thanks, Alex.

01:30:25.64
Alex
Bye.