Date: April 7th, 2016
About Teal Dreher
This is an interview with Teal Dreher, a V8 boulderer who climbed through the grades in just a few years using various training programs. She also regularly puts in 70 hours per week as an environmental engineer, so I thought she’d be a perfect person to represent normal non-pro climbers.
She takes us through her evolution of climbing training, starting with the Anderson brothers’ program, then through Eric Horst’s teachings, and finally with our very own Kris Peters, who she’s currently training with.
I honestly loved talking with Teal because I felt like we could relate on climbing on a different level than my pro climber guests. I hope you like this very informative conversation as much as I did!
What We Talked About
- V8 in 3 years
- Anderson Bros’ program
- vs Horst’s program
- vs Kris Peters’ program
- Juggling training and working
- What she eats when climbing (and in general) to stay lean
Teal Dreher Links
- Teal’s website: www.tealasaurus.wordpress.com
- Teal’s Instagram: @tealasaurus
- Teal on Barfly V8 in Little Cottonwood Canyon (Video)
Training Programs for You
- Check out our Route Climbing Training Program for route climbers of all abilities.
- Our other training programs: Training Programs Page.
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Neely Quinn: Welcome to the Training Beta podcast, where I talk with climbers and trainers about how we can get a little better at our favorite sport. I’m your host, Neely Quinn, and today we’re on episode 50 of the podcast, so that’s exciting.
I’m talking with Teal Dreher to mark this fiftieth episode and to give you a little background on why I’m interviewing Teal, it’s because you guys asked for it. I asked on Facebook, “What do you guys want? Who do you want me to interview on the show?” I got an overwhelming response from you guys (thank you) that you wanted to hear from people who were more like you. Less pros who were training for V15 or 5.15 or whatever and more ‘the average climber.’
I’m not saying Teal isn’t strong – she is super strong, but she’s not climbing V15. She’s not climbing V14, she’s not Alex Puccio or Ashima. She’s a V8 boulderer and that’s more along the lines of who I am or who you are – who our audience is, in general. For her to have done that in a very short time gives credit to the training that she’s done. She’s really psyched on training and she’s done quite a few things with her training and followed different trainers’ advice. She has come to the point of being stronger than she’s ever been and we’re going to talk about how she did that.
I’m pretty excited. I had a really great conversation with her. I felt like I could relate with her more than a lot of the people I talk to so hopefully you guys can hear that in the conversation.
A little update on me is that I am sick, if you can’t hear it in my voice. I have the cold that everybody seems to have this spring, which sucks, but I just wanted to bring it up because it seems like everybody has it and a lot of people are struggling with, “Should I train through this cold? How much should I be climbing?” What I found for myself was, I was sort of getting sick but it wasn’t super bad and then I trained last week and I came home. By the time I got home I was really bad, like, my nose was running, my eyes were watering, I felt really bad. I know that it’s because I pushed myself so hard in our training session. That just goes to show you that if you are sick, you’re in a weakened state and your immune system isn’t so great.
You do affect your immune system by training. If you can, take some rest days, do some things that you’ve been meaning to do that you haven’t given yourself time to because you’ve been training or working and all that. Make sure you drink lots of water, get lots of sleep, keep it down on the caffeine so that you can sleep when you need to sleep, eat really good foods, try to stay away from sugar and dairy because those things can promote phlegm, and rest. Take care of yourself and watch some tv and just remember that the more you push, yourself the worse you’re going to feel and the longer you’re going to be away from training. Whatever you lose during this time, you will get it back.
Hopefully we’ll all carry on pretty soon without these colds. If you have the cold I’m sorry. I hope you get better soon. If you do have it, take care of yourself. That’s it – that’s my little spiel on that. I’m going to get into this interview with Teal now. I hope you enjoy it!
Neely Quinn: Welcome to the show, Teal. Thanks very much for being with me today.
Teal Dreher: No problem! Thanks for having me.
Neely Quinn: Yeah! Your name is Teal Dreher and you’re a climber out of near-Seattle and mostly a boulderer, right?
Teal Dreher: Yes.
Neely Quinn: Can you tell me just a little more about yourself for anybody who doesn’t know you?
Teal Dreher: I’m 28. I’m from the Pacific Northwest. I’m an environmental engineer so I work full time, sometimes 70 hours a week during part of the year. I think it’s pretty interesting during those times to try to fit climbing in but I think that’s maybe one of the things I maybe do well, is fit climbing in even when life is hectic.
Neely Quinn: Yeah. That’s a huge challenge for a lot of people so I’m excited to talk to you about that more.
Teal Dreher: Definitely.
Neely Quinn: You are 28 years old and how long have you been climbing?
Teal Dreher: Almost five years.
Neely Quinn: So you’re perfect, actually. One of the reasons why I have you on the show, which we just discussed before the show, is that I did a Facebook post asking people, “Who do you want me to have on the show?” I got an overwhelming number of responses from people saying, “I want more people on the show like me.” Not like ‘me’ me, but like them, who have jobs, they have families, and they’re not Alex Puccio and they’re not Adam Ondra. They are climbing as hard as they can and they just want to get stronger. This is why I asked you. I know that you trained, because you’re training with Kris Peters right now, right?
Teal Dreher: Yep.
Neely Quinn: I know that you’ve been kind of following Training Beta for a while so I was like, “I think that Teal would be perfect.” Also, I’ve had some other people say to me, “Is it possible to get strong if you don’t start climbing as a child?” So you’re also perfect in that respect.
Teal Dreher: Awesome!
Neely Quinn: You started climbing when you were about 23, it sounds like?
Teal Dreher: Yeah, and the interesting thing, too – I’ve been with my husband for 11 years and he’s been a climber for as long as I’ve known him. He’s actually been climbing, like, 15 years? The first six years of our relationship I just really hated climbing.
Neely Quinn: So like, after college?
Teal Dreher: Yep. After college and I started my job and we kind of settled down a little bit. Then I had some free time and I was able to actually give climbing a solid try.
Neely Quinn: He was probably pretty psyched about that.
Teal Dreher: Yeah. [laughs]
Neely Quinn: [laughs] That’s cool. Were you in sports when you were in high school or younger?
Teal Dreher: Not at all. I was really unathletic. I didn’t do anything. I’m naturally kind of a small person so I never felt like, “I need to work out and get in shape.” My sisters aren’t athletic and I didn’t really do anything until climbing.
Neely Quinn: That actually brings me to a good question: how tall are you? What’s your weight? Just to get a good idea of what your body is like.
Teal Dreher: I’m 5’2” and I have a negative one ape index so I’m fairly short. I’m in the, kind of, 105-110 weight range.
Neely Quinn: After you started climbing, did you notice that your body changed at all?
Teal Dreher: Oh absolutely. Before, I was always thin but I wouldn’t have called myself fit at all. I was skinny but I wasn’t at all muscular. Now that I’ve been climbing I’m definitely more muscular and I’ve also gained weight. Before I started climbing I was probably more like 97 pounds? I was skinny and I’m probably physically the same size but that muscle adds quite a bit of weight.
Neely Quinn: Yeah, I think that a lot of people probably notice that as their bodies change, which is kind of cool. You’re like, “Oh my god – where did this bicep come from?”
Teal Dreher: Yeah. [laughs] Even looking back, like, at my wedding pictures I’m like, “My arms are so weird and small.”
Neely Quinn: When you started bouldering – have you always just bouldered or have you ever sport climbed, too?
Teal Dreher: I sport climb a little bit. I’m definitely – I think when I first started climbing I think I did start sport climbing just because I think it does cater a little better to people who don’t have muscle. You can technique your way through a little bit. I’ve gone through short spurts where I sport climb. I’ve done a handful of 5.12a’s but endurance is not what I’m good at.
Neely Quinn: What would you say you’re good at?
Teal Dreher: I think short, powerful moves. I think the thing I’m best at is trying hard. I’m able to try really, really hard and I think that’s kind of a big thing that has made me progress, is just being able to try really hard.
Neely Quinn: How hard do you boulder?
Teal Dreher: I would consider myself a solid V8 climber. I’ve done a handful of V8s and a ton of V7s.
Neely Quinn: Cool. Nice work, by the way. That’s awesome.
Teal Dreher: Thanks!
Neely Quinn: You said that one of your biggest assets is that you can try hard. I’m wondering if that’s something that’s carried you through your whole life. Do you see that in other parts of your life?
Teal Dreher: Definitely. It’s funny because I think, before I started climbing, school always came pretty easily to me and I felt like I never really pushed myself too far. With climbing, seeing how if you actually apply yourself and try really hard you get results from that, that definitely has filtered into my job and every other part of my life.
Neely Quinn: So you feel like you learned it from climbing and it’s been infused into other parts of your life?
Teal Dreher: Into other parts- absolutely.
Neely Quinn: That’s awesome. That’s so cool. I was expecting you to say the opposite, that you’ve just always tried hard and that this just came naturally to you, to try hard in climbing.
Teal Dreher: Not at all. I think that because my husband has been climbing forever, when I started climbing with him he was so much better than me, obviously. I just really wanted to catch up so I think that’s kind of what maybe pushed me a little bit to try really hard. [laughs]
Neely Quinn: Are you competitive with your husband?
Teal Dreher: A little bit. It’s hard to say I’m competitive with him because he’s still a V11 climber. We’re definitely not on the same level, but anytime I can do a move that he can’t, definitely a little part of me will get pretty psyched about it.
Neely Quinn: I think we’re very similar in this way. My husband is, well, he just had surgery so he’s not back there but he was a .14b climber and I’m like a 5.13 minus-ish climber. He’s just out of my league and I think that’s something that we have to balance and that all climbers have to balance. When I’m climbing with him, I kind of just put him in a different category as myself so I don’t feel competitive with him but of course there are always those times, like you mentioned, where you can do a move and he can’t and you’re like, “Yes!” How do you deal with competitiveness with yourself and maybe the people who are maybe in your realm of climbing?
Teal Dreher: I think that’s a really good question because I think that’s actually something that I struggled with when I first started climbing. I’m definitely competitive by nature and when I first started climbing and had climbing partners who were kind of in my same level, I think I compared myself a lot to other people. If I had a day where I felt stronger than other people I would be really excited and if I had days, which were most days actually, or I felt not as strong I would get really frustrated and leave the gym in a bad mood. I think one day I sat down and was like, “I’m not even really having fun anymore.” I had to assess, “Why am I not having fun and what’s going on?” I realized you can’t compare yourself to another person. Yes, someone may be able to do a move that you can’t or is stronger or is taller or something. There’s always going to be something and that’s when I decided it really has to be a personal thing, watching my personal growth and not how it relates to other people. For me, I’ve tried really hard to take competition out of climbing completely. I have competition with myself, like, I’d like to be stronger for myself but I try really hard to not compare that directly with other people.
Neely Quinn: When you’re actually out bouldering – this isn’t what I expected to talk to you about, but I think it’s really interesting – when you’re out bouldering with people, it’s a very social thing and you have people you are working on the same problems with. It’s easy to go home and say, “I’m not gonna be competitive,” and “This isn’t fun anymore.” I do the same thing, but when you’re actually out there and you can’t do a move and your friend does the move, what is it that you tell yourself in that moment that helps you be neutral about it?
Teal Dreher: I try to take it as a learning experience. If there’s someone who can do something that I can’t do, even if I feel like, “I’m stronger than them; I should be able to do it,” I try to assess/I’m like, “This is a great learning experience. Why I can’t do this move and they can? Is there something I can learn from them?” Sometimes it’s just trying to turn it into a positive thing where I’m really inspired by how strong this lady crusher is and I’d like to get there. What can I do? Let’s go train.
Neely Quinn: Cool. Let’s talk a little about your progression as a climber because, obviously, you’ve only been climbing for five years so it went pretty quickly. How many years into it were you climbing V8?
Teal Dreher: Let’s see, I climbed my first V8 in 2014 so…
Neely Quinn: So you’d only been climbing for three years.
Teal Dreher: Yeah. I think the first couple years of climbing I just climbed a lot. Probably the first two and a half years? I just climbed and probably too much. I think I was probably overtraining from just going to the bouldering gym and just wrecking myself all the time. I think that’s also the time where I was just getting frustrated, comparing myself to other people and just wanting to be stronger so badly. That’s when I kind of found training, which is another thing that helped my mindset, also, not just physically but also adding in training made it less competitive with other people and more about focusing on me.
I started training at the beginning of 2013 and first, what I started with was just kind of my own training. I was just like, “Well, I should incorporate campusing,” and that was campusing on the systems board, so on big jugs versus campus rungs. I started campusing and I did that for about three months and then I got injured. That’s the problem that I’ll put out there. I think coming up with your own training stuff, if don’t know what you’re doing, I think it’s easy to over-do it. Especially when you’re coming up with your own stuff, it’s easy to do what’s fun and what you’re good at but not necessarily work on your weaknesses. You get kind of lopsided training. At the end of three months of doing that on my own I was, actually, it was right before I was supposed to go on a climbing trip and I was climbing in the gym and my shoulder actually popped out of it’s socket while I was climbing. That took me out for a while and I took a break from training. I had to rehab it for a little bit and make sure it didn’t pop back out. It was a partial dislocation so it wasn’t super serious but I was warned that if it happens again, it could be become chronic so I had to be super careful with my shoulders for a while, probably six months or so.
Neely Quinn: So now what? Do you campus still?
Teal Dreher: I do campus still. I think my shoulder, I would say, is 100 percent better. I babied it for a while and I’ve done a lot of shoulder strengthening exercises since then and I make sure to keep that a part of my routine always, to do do shoulder recovery.
Neely Quinn: What kinds of things do you do?
Teal Dreher: The external and internal rotations with bands or with cables, shoulder presses – I think shoulder presses was a big one because I read about the injury after it happened. When it came out of its socket I was in a crimp/gaston position and I guess, when you’re like that, your shoulder is more at-risk because it’s out of rotation. The shoulder presses, I read, was one of the big things to strengthen that particular part of your shoulder. I definitely incorporate those, lateral raises with dumbbells, frontal raises with dumbbells…
Neely Quinn: Nice. Sounds pretty standard but really effective.
Teal Dreher: Yeah, I definitely recommend to people to take care of your shoulders before you have to take care of your shoulders. [laughs]
Neely Quinn: Well it’s good that you learned it so early. I started climbing when I was 19 and I guess I injured myself about 16 years later because I didn’t know to do those things. It’s really good and I hope that everybody hears this message and does what Teal does.
Teal Dreher: Yes. [laughs]
Neely Quinn: Let’s talk a little more about the details of your training. In 2014 you started training really?
Teal Dreher: 2013. I did my own thing, got injured, had to take a few months kinda taking it easy, but after that, actually that spring, I sent my first V8. So after being injured, I rehabbed myself and was able to send my first V8 that spring and then I started training again. This time I did the Eric Hӧrst 4-3-2-1 training, which is periodized training where you do four weeks of volume and then you do three weeks of strength, then it goes into power and power endurance. I basically only got to the end of the four weeks of volume climbing and I got a really bad finger injury.
For me, training has been a learning experience. Every time I train I learn something new and learn a little more how to train. I think what I did wrong there, I think sometimes with training, it’s easy to let your ego play a part of it and with the volume training you’re supposed to be at a pretty low level of climbing but you’re climbing, like, four days a week. I think it’s intended to be done with routes and I was doing it with bouldering, which I think was part of the problem, and then I was probably also climbing a little bit too hard for being considered ‘volume climbing.’ I was climbing, basically, right up to my flash limit, four days a week, and I think that was just way too much.
Neely Quinn: That’s so funny. I think we have a lot in common. I did the same thing about four years ago. I was training with a coach and, same thing, four days a week I was doing routes, not at my limit but probably harder than I should have been and I got an arm tendon injury. I was like, “What the hell?” [laughs] So, learned from that one.
Teal Dreher: So, I learned from that one, yep. That fall, I sent my second V8, which I consider the more legit of the two. The first one I sent is called The Tree Problem. It’s in Leavenworth and it’s recently been downgraded to V7. If I put it in the category with all the other V8s that I’ve done I can probably agree that that was probably V7. That fall, I sent The Jib, which is a V8 in Leavenworth so that is super cool and super hard. I was pretty excited about that.
Neely Quinn: Nice.
Teal Dreher: Then, I didn’t go back to the Eric Hӧrst training. I started doing, in 2014, I started doing the Anderson brothers’ Rock Prodigy training.
Neely Quinn: Okay.
Teal Dreher: I actually did three full cycles of that and I thought it was super effective. I felt like I went up, I mean, I feel like I went up grades-wise in climbing. I haven’t necessarily sent harder than V8 but I feel like I’ve sent so many V7s and V6s since then and V8 has become, like, I can do it in a couple sessions versus it being project grade for me. I thought that was really effective.
Again, I kind of had to learn how to do it. The first time with/even with the strength training, where you’re on the hangboard, I think I wasn’t – again, I think I had a little bit of ego with it and was like, “Oh, I should be able to do all of these hangs with at least bodyweight.” I didn’t really like the idea of having to take weight off because I felt like I didn’t really need to and I couldn’t get through the workout. That was really frustrating. I didn’t get super injured but before we started the second round, my husband actually sat down next to me and was like, “Teal, we actually need to talk about this. I don’t think you’re doing this correctly and I think you’re going to hurt yourself and I think you’re just frustrated all the time. Take weight off so you can complete it and feel good about it.”
Neely Quinn: Yeah…yeah…
Teal Dreher: So the second that I learned, that was definitely a good thing to do. Even if you start taking 20 pounds off, you can improve from session to session and eventually get to maybe where you should be. Definitely, that was a lesson that I had to learn the hard way. [laughs]
Neely Quinn: So you said you were doing the Anderson brothers’ program. Can you tell me specifically what you were doing with that?
Teal Dreher: With the Anderson brothers, that’s also periodized training so you do strength, which is basically just hangboarding and you pick some other strength exercises which you do supplementally. The thing about that is you don’t really get to climb while you’re doing it. You climb to warm-up for your hangboard workouts, then you do a hangboard workout, and maybe some other supplemental strength exercises and maybe you take two days of rest. It’s hangboard – the whole strength period is like that and then you move on to power, which is…
Neely Quinn: And how many weeks is that? Sorry to interrupt.
Teal Dreher: I think it’s about four weeks.
Neely Quinn: Okay. So you didn’t climb, really, at all.
Teal Dreher: You don’t really climb at all, yeah. Then you get to move on to power which is much more fun, in my opinion, which is three weeks of you alternate between limit bouldering and campus workouts. The limit bouldering, you try to do something that is kind of one or two really hard moves that maybe takes you sessions to do. Actually, with that, I set specific – we have a home wall so I set some specific climbs that mimicked projects that I had and used that as my limit problems.
Neely Quinn: How many days a week were you training in both of those cycles?
Teal Dreher: You actually don’t train very many days a week because with the strength phase you do a workout then have two days of rest, so it’s between two and three hangboard workouts a week. When you go into power you have limit bouldering, one day of rest, campusing, two days of rest, and that repeats so you probably end up doing three days a week.
Neely Quinn: That’s so funny. I kind of knew this about the Anderson brothers but you saying this compared to a lot of other people that I talk to, saying that they’re training like 10 sessions a week or whatever it might be [laughs]. Okay, so two to three days a week in the power session as well?
Teal Dreher: Yep.
Neely Quinn: And then what?
Teal Dreher: Then I didn’t do power endurance because, reading their book, they say when you’re training for bouldering you don’t really need power endurance. I don’t agree with that, for me, personally. I think power endurance, like I said endurance in general, is something that I’ve always struggled with and I think power endurance for sure. There are climbs that I’ve done or climbs that have just been very hard for me that, you know, a lot of powerful moves in a row I definitely get pumped and then it gets in my head and all that. I think power endurance is actually something I’ve found is super important for me but I didn’t do any power endurance training during that time because they don’t recommend it.
Neely Quinn: What kind of results – did you do anything else after the power cycle?
Teal Dreher: No, then it goes into performance.
Neely Quinn: Okay. So then, did you find that you had good results from that?
Teal Dreher: Yeah. I actually had a project in Salt Lake City. I first found it/I went to Salt Lake City in 2013 for work and I climbed in Little Cottonwood Canyon and there was a problem there called Barfly and it’s graded V8. Originally when I was there in 2013 – there’s a stand start to it that’s V5 and I had to project the stand start but I finally sent the stand start to it and then I thought the whole problem was really cool and I wanted to do it. It starts off with this really powerful move, probably the hardest move of the climb is pulling yourself off the ground from this little two-finger pocket and this little side pull. I really wanted to do it. I had gone back in 2014 and tried it again and didn’t send it and then one of my limit boulder problems that I set when I was training with the Anderson brothers’ training was replicating Barfly. I went back at the beginning of 2015 and sent it so…
Neely Quinn: Nice work.
Teal Dreher: Yeah.
Neely Quinn: Did you send it with ease? Did if feel super different than when you had been there last time?
Teal Dreher: I sent it pretty quickly. It still felt really hard and actually, the funny thing about this problem is, I sent it originally in March of 2015 and it still felt really hard for me. The first move you, like, have to pull yourself up with these really bad holds and then I’m pretty short so I can’t reach the bump to this rail. I can’t quite reach the rail so I have to bump to an intermediate and then bump to the rail. Then I was having to match the rail, which most people don’t do, and then campus out to this really good gaston jug. It felt really hard and I was super psyched that I was able to do it, but it’s funny because I went back again.
I was there for work this last fall and I actually repeated that problem in one or two tries. I was showing my friend beta and, in one or two tries I repeated it and I didn’t even have to match on those holds and I was able to do it the normal way. I thought that was pretty cool. I use that problem to show my progression because it’s like, “Yeah, first I had to project the V5 stand start and then the V8 was really hard for me and now I can do it pretty easily.”
Neely Quinn: What do you think got you to that point this most recent time you were there?
Teal Dreher: I did another round of training and then this last year I actually focused. I really love projecting and I really think that’s why I’ve progressed so much throughout the years so quickly. It’s because I’m good at finding something and getting super psyched about it and trying really hard and projecting. This last year, after I sent my project, I spent the whole year pretty much just doing volume of moderates. I focused my time on, instead of trying to climb V9 or V10, just climbing a bunch of V7 and V6s and filling in the gaps and doing a few more V8s. Not necessarily projecting so much. I think that, actually, made me really strong. I think it gave me more bouldering technique. I was able to see all those strength gains that I got from training and then learn how to actually utilize that strength in climbing.
Neely Quinn: Yeah, which is so important. I want to commend you, because a lot of people would just be tempted to go on to V9 or V10 or whatever and you took a step back. I think that says a lot about your humility and it also paid off, so great work.
Teal Dreher: Thank you!
Neely Quinn: You did the volume, and I’m assuming that was in the summer of last year? Fall?
Teal Dreher: Yep. Summer and fall. Actually, I sent Barfly in March of last year and I think after that I came home and spent that spring in Leavenworth and Squamish and then fall I was in Utah, in Joe’s Valley a lot and in Little Cottonwood. I just focused on sending a ton of volume of, even V4s, V5s that I haven’t done, and V6s and V7s and even while doing that volume phase I noticed the grade that I could climb with ease kind of went up, even though I wasn’t projecting anything super hard. It was, like, initially V4 I could do very quickly and then it was like, “Oh! I can do these V5s really quickly,” and then V6 and V7. It was really cool to kind of see the progression.
Neely Quinn: Do you feel like you have a grasp of a lot of different types of rock? It sounds like you spend a lot of time on sandstone. Wait – no. Little Cottonwood, is that granite?
Teal Dreher: Granite, yep. So, I’m most familiar with granite in the Pacific Northwest. Leavenworth and Squamish is granite and then Little Cottonwood is granite but then last year I was able to go to Fontainebleau for a couple of weeks, which is sandstone, and then Joe’s Valley, and then we ended up going down to Moe’s Valley and Red Rock, which are all sandstone. Now I feel pretty versed in sandstone.
Neely Quinn: I think that that plays a big part in it, too. Not only climbing a lot outside but climbing on different stones.
Teal Dreher: Yeah. Absolutely.
Neely Quinn: So now what? Now what’s going on with your training?
Teal Dreher: Last year I was doing volume and we did a lot of travel and we went down to Moe’s Valley and Red Rock and I found two lines that I was really, really impressed by and I really wanted to do. One of them was a V9 called Scare Tactics Right and the other one is in Moe’s Valley, called Dead Rabbit. I worked on them a little bit while we were on short trips and I was able to do a lot of the moves fairly quickly. I got really psyched on that and I really wanted to send them. This was, let’s see, I tried them again in December. We went for Christmas. We went down to Red Rock and Moe’s Valley and I tried them and was able to get through most of the moves and I felt really confident. Then I found out that my sister was getting married in February, down by Vegas, so I decided that would be a great time to go back and try to send my projects. I decided I wanted to do something to get myself into the shape to go back and send them. That’s when I saw that Kris Peters was working with you guys, doing the personalized training programs. I had seven weeks before I was supposed to go down there again and he does the five-week training plan so I took two weeks of rest after coming back from Vegas then did Kris Peters’ five-week training plan.
Neely Quinn: How did that go? What kind of things did he have you doing and how did that go?
Teal Dreher: Well, what I was really impressed with right off the bat was that I kind of thought that I knew what I needed to work on because I had been able to do all of the moves. I thought, “Okay, it’s just power endurance because I can’t put it together. Obviously, I’m losing energy and not able to do all the moves in a row so it’s power endurance.” I sent Kris an email and I said, “This is the situation.” I actually sent him a short video of me working on Scare Tactics and I said, “I’ve done all the moves. I think it’s just power endurance. Please help me!” He sent me an email back and was like, “Yeah, power endurance is probably something you can work on but also, looking at the video, your feet don’t stay on the rock. That’s great that you can do it and your feet can come off but you’re losing a lot of energy and that’s why, by the time you get to the end, you don’t have anything left in your tank. It’s because you’re basically not being efficient.”
It was really cool that he was able to, with such ease, point out something that I hadn’t thought of and something that from talking – because I’d asked my husband all the time, “What can I work on? What can I work on?” – something that he didn’t think of, either. I think that’s where a professional – there’s a lot of value in that. He put together a plan for me that was focused on finger strength because they’re both super crimpy lines, and shoulders, and core.
Neely Quinn: Core to keep your feet on?
Teal Dreher: Yes. He said overall body tension. The shoulders and core was to have more overall body tension so that my feet wouldn’t fly off on so many moves, because it’s a pretty steep climb, too. So…and then power endurance. I focused on those things and it was training five days a week, which was something I hadn’t done before. I actually found, I mean, it was really hard work. It was a lot of training but I found that it was super helpful.
I guess the nice thing about having someone else put together a training plan for you is that they will kind of have you do things that maybe you wouldn’t choose to do yourself. Before that, I didn’t choose to spend a lot of time down in the weight room because it’s not fun. I like climbing. Climbing is fun. Campusing is fun. I can do those things but going down into the weight room and doing a bunch of core workouts and doing a bunch of things with dumbbells isn’t something that I would generally go do. That was the great thing about training with Kris Peters, is that he had me work on my weaknesses and I also really enjoyed the fact that it wasn’t periodized. I think mentally it’s a lot easier. I didn’t have to take four weeks off of climbing, which is what I had to do when I did the Anderson brothers’ training.
I had two days a week when I had power endurance. I had two hangboard workouts a week and then I’d have one day of campusing. I was kind of worried that I would get burned out or injured but I think the way it was set-up – I actually had kind of a finger injury going in and it went away during this training, hangboards workout and stuff.
Neely Quinn: [laughs] That’s amazing.
Teal Dreher: Yeah. So I strongly recommend it. I think it’s awesome. I’m actually training with him again. We’re going to Joe’s Valley for a couple of days at the end of this week and then when I get back I’m going to start training with Kris again because I thought it was really great.
In conclusion, after the five weeks of training, we went to Red Rock and unfortunately, it was 80 degrees then so I couldn’t get on Scare Tactics at all. I projected it for about 15 minutes and the holds were so greasy and it was so hot out and it’s kind of a scary climb. There’s a boulder right beneath it and at one point, my husband was like, “I worry that if you grease off of that pinch, you’re going to face plant onto that boulder.”
Neely Quinn: Oh god.
Teal Dreher: So I was just like “Okay. I’m over it. I don’t need to work on it.” [laughs] That was disappointing but we went back to Moe’s Valley and I got on Dead Rabbit, which is a V10, and it felt so much easier. I didn’t end up sending it but I ended up – the third move of it, which is usually not at all the crux for people, it’s hard for me just because I’m so short. Most people do it with a kneebar and I’m not able to have a kneebar because of my arm length so it becomes a super powerful move. I was able to do it starting at the crux to the top with ease and my feet stayed on on the moves. I noticed, I didn’t send my project, but I did notice a huge gain in strength from that training.
Neely Quinn: That’s awesome. That’s really great.
Teal Dreher: Yeah!
Neely Quinn: I’m wondering: what kind of things were you doing for core?
Teal Dreher: A lot of stuff with the TRX, like TRX planks, TRX saws, these really horrible things called TRX ‘super sets’ where he’ll have me do a 60-second plank on the TRX and then immediately do 50 crunches then take a minute of rest and do it four times. Also, TRX reverse crunches immediately followed by 30 sit-ups, so a lot of core stuff.
Neely Quinn: [laughs] That’s what he makes me do, too.
Teal Dreher: Yeah. [laughs]
Neely Quinn: What about weight lifting? Did he have you do anything with weights?
Teal Dreher: Yep. A lot of stuff for the shoulders like shoulder presses, lateral raises, and frontal raises. He had me do, with the shoulder presses, the bar versus with dumbbells. Mostly shoulder stuff.
Neely Quinn: Okay, so no deadlifting. No squatting. Nothing big?
Teal Dreher: No, he didn’t have me do that. I think maybe I wasn’t there yet. [laughs] Maybe that’s next time around.
Neely Quinn: Maybe, hopefully you get the joy of doing that. Where are you now with it? Are you training by yourself at this point?
Teal Dreher: I came back from Vegas and then we had this plan to do Joe’s Valley for five days at the end of this month, so I decided to just replicate three weeks of training. I was just repeating the training that I did with Kris for three weeks and then we’re going to Joe’s Valley on Thursday. When I come back from Joe’s Valley I’m starting with a new training plan with Kris.
Neely Quinn: What are your hopes for Joe’s Valley this time?
Teal Dreher: It’s hard. I kinda wanted to say I don’t want a project on this trip because it’s such a short trip and I just recently had a trip where I really wanted to send super hard. The other thing about Joe’s Valley is, because I was in Utah all fall, I’ve done most of the moderates and most of the classics so I have a couple of moderates that I didn’t finish picked out. I want to do Bring the Heatwole and the stand start to Resident Evil, which goes at like V7 or V8. I’ve picked out some harder stuff that I want to try since I’ve done a lot of the classics and a lot of the moderates there. I want to try Fingerhut, there’s a V9 called Hooters that I really want to get on, and then I’ll try the actual start to Resident Evil.
Neely Quinn: Okay. I have a couple questions that are specific. One is: as a short climber myself, I understand the challenges that you have and I’m wondering if you train anything specifically for – well, first of all, my question is what do you think hurts you the most as a short climber? How do you overcome that?
Teal Dreher: Sometimes I think the worst part about being short is just seeing other people climb. Certain moves, you know that you’ve got to dyno and I’ve got to cut my feet and that person can just reach it. Sometimes that can be kinda demoralizing, because you’re like, “ I just have to work so much harder than these other people.”
At the same time, I’ve talked to other people about it, with shorter muscles they actually can gain more power than people with really long limbs because the physics of it. I’m really good at lock-offs and I think I – I don’t necessarily think I train for that really but I think just the way I climb caters to that. Being short, I think, being able to lock-off is super important so I would say that’s one thing I focus on, is lock-offs. The other thing I have to push myself to focus on is being dynamic. Being short, you can’t really be just a static climber or you’re never gonna reach anything, so I have to – which it doesn’t come super naturally to me. Something I’m definitely always trying to work on is trying to be more dynamic as a climber.
Neely Quinn: Cool. On the campus board, I think that a lot of people like to know what other people are doing. My friend, James Lucas, just came over the other day and was like, “Can you do 1-4-8 on the campus board?” and I was like, “Are you high? No. I’m five feet tall.” [laughs] I’m not saying that’s impossible but what do you do on the campus board?
Teal Dreher: I guess I’ll start by saying that I started, like I said, by campusing on a system board. I think if you’ve never campused before, it’s a really smart way to go because you don’t have the potential for finger injury. Also, there’s bigger spacing so you’re actually gaining just power versus finger strength. So that’s how I started. It was on the systems board. First, I started just trying to campus where I would match every rung and then I made it my goal where I would try to campus without matching and you actually learn. I felt like it’s easier to learn on a system board, kind of campus technique, where you turn it into a little bit of a mantle almost. I started…
Neely Quinn: You mean like you’re pulling with one arm and you’re pushing with the other?
Teal Dreher: …pushing with the lower arm, yep. I started with that and I think that’s a really good place for people who have never campused to start because you’re not in danger of getting a finger injury. If you don’t have the correct form, fingers and shoulders are/it’s easy to injure those things campusing. I think that’s a good place to start. As far as now, I do…what do I do? I usually warm-up just doing ladders and then I focus on the biggest pull-through move I can do. I have a campus board at home and it’s spaced the ‘half Moon’ spacing so, you know, there’s ‘full Moon’ spacing and then you can do the intermediate ‘half Moon’ spacing. I really like that setup because I feel like, with those intermediate rungs, you can – sometimes when it’s just large spacing, it’s like, “Okay, 1-3-5 feels super easy for me but 1-3-6 feels impossible.” It’s really nice to have campus boards where there’s that intermediate rung, you know what I mean?
Neely Quinn: Yeah.
Teal Dreher: I focus on the biggest pull-through move I can do. I’m trying to do/working on 1-3-6 or 1-3-7 on the campus board.
Neely Quinn: And you, I’m assuming – that’s really impressive. I’m assuming you had to work up to that?
Teal Dreher: Oh absolutely. Starting off on the campus board, again, basically like I did with the system board, I started on the big rungs and it was about laddering and matching each rung then it was like, “Okay, can I do them, you know, without matching?” Then it’s like, “How big of a move can I do and can I match that? How big of a move can I do? Can I go at least one rung past that with my next hand?” Kris Peters had me do campus bumps where you just start matched and then bump your hand up the rungs.
Neely Quinn: Do you feel like that helped your overall reach?
Teal Dreher: Yeah, I definitely do.
Neely Quinn: Okay, and how many days are you campusing? Did you say two?
Teal Dreher: Just one.
Neely Quinn: Okay, just one, and then you were doing two days of fingers.
Teal Dreher: Yep, two days of hangboard and then two days of power endurance.
Neely Quinn: Okay. I would like to talk to you about your work/training balance. I’m sure we could go on and on about all the training and I feel like you’ve given me some really practical, good information but I want to know how do you balance all of this? How much do you work and what are your hours like and where do you fit climbing in?
Teal Dreher: Last year was kind of a crazy year for me with work. I’m an engineer and I do environmental consulting so we do remediation projects, which means that we have projects that we design that go into construction and then we do the construction oversight. When that’s happening I have no control over my hours. I have to be there anytime people are working. Generally that’s 10-hour days, six days a week. Last year we had two big projects, one at the start of the year that went from the previous October through March, so the first three months of last year I was working about 70 hours a week. The project hours at that time were like 10:00-8:00, I believe were the hours for it, so I would actually go to the climbing gym at like 6:00AM and train or do whatever, climb, and then go to work at 9:30 and then be there till 8:00. I would probably go twice a week and then I have Sundays off so I would go climbing Sundays and ended up training or climbing three days a week during that.
When I’m not on a project my hours are a lot more flexible and I can take time off and go on trips. Right now, I’m in the office so I have a deal with my boss where I can come in late on Wednesdays so I can go to the gym and climb in the morning. I really appreciate climbing in the mornings. When I’m in the office it’s flexible but generally, yeah, there are times during the year – in the fall I was in Salt Lake City for three months for work. Again, working 10-hour days, six days a week and on my one day off I would get in the car, drive two and a half hours and go to Joe’s and climb and drive back and go to work on Monday.
Neely Quinn: Oh my god. That sounds exhausting. Are you exhausted?
Teal Dreher: I mean, it gets exhausting but I do think I manage it pretty well. You know, during those times it’s like something’s gotta give. Sometimes it’s sleep that kind of lacks a little bit. Sometimes I enjoy running but definitely, if I’m in a time where I’m on a project and working that much, I don’t run at all. Yeah, I mean luckily, as far as – relationships can lack during that time too, but luckily my husband’s a climber, my good friends are mostly climbers, so I get to see them when I climb and they all are pretty understanding of my schedule. I make it work. It’s tough, but definitely climbing’s so important to me and I think without that, I don’t think I could sustain that schedule. I think if I worked 70 hours a week and wasn’t able to climb at all, I think that would be harder for me than working 70 hours a week and trying to fit in a couple hours here and there to climb.
Neely Quinn: Right. About how much sleep do you get?
Teal Dreher: Right now, since I’m in the office, I try to get eight or nine hours since I’ve been training so much. During those times, my average is probably more like six to seven hours.
Neely Quinn: Do you feel that, when you’re sleeping less?
Teal Dreher: Yeah, I feel that in my recovery. During those times I don’t think I would ever do, like, “Hey, Kris Peters. Let’s climb five days a week and I’m going to be working 70 hours.” I don’t think I could sustain that but I would bring it down to where I’m only climbing or training three days a week because I don’t think I could recover to train five days a week. Right now, because I’m training five days a week, I try to get eight or nine hours of sleep.
Neely Quinn: That’s good to hear. I like that. Do you depend on caffeine a lot?
Teal Dreher: I love coffee. I really do. Every time I realize that I’m kind of addicted to coffee, which will happen because I’ll wake up in the morning and I’ll feel hungover and I’ll realize I just haven’t had caffeine yet, I’ll actually try to switch to decaf for a while to try to not have that dependency. I really love coffee so it’s pretty hard. [laughs] And I love the feeling that I get from coffee, that psyched, caffeinated feeling.
Neely Quinn: Do you feel like it helps your climbing?
Teal Dreher: I think that’s hard question for me because I don’t think I’ve ever gone climbing without coffee. [laughs] I would say yes, it probably does.
Neely Quinn: Okay, we won’t go into that.
Teal Dreher: Okay.
Neely Quinn: I do think that a lot of people are actually similar to you in that they have these busy days and they’re trying to climb and they only sleep six or seven hours a day sometimes and so caffeine is their friend. In general, I just think that people should know how it affects them. That whole addiction thing, it seems like you’re keeping it at/you’re keeping a handle on it, which I think is a healthy thing.
Teal Dreher: Yeah, I think so. Like I said, sometimes when – I can only focus on so many things at once. When I’m working 70 hours a week and climbing, I have no problem having two coffees every day and I’m okay with that. Like right now, when things are slower in the office and I can have a more flexible schedule and I can get in enough sleep, I definitely will try, like, “I’m gonna go two weeks with just decaf,” just to make sure that my body’s not so dependent on caffeine.
Neely Quinn: So do you ever go through times where you lack motivation for training and climbing?
Teal Dreher: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, this last trip to Red Rock that I took at the end of December, I felt like I had an accumulation of fatigue from the fall and probably working so much and then climbing so much and not getting enough sleep. I definitely felt the effects of that and so we went to Red Rock and I found these super awesome projects but I also just felt like I wasn’t climbing my best. It was pretty frustrating and that’s actually part of the reason why I decided to do the Kris Peters thing, because I wasn’t/I knew that I didn’t have enough motivation to get myself to do something unless I had someone there to be like, “No, you need to do this.”
That’s actually why I signed up for the Kris Peters thing, because I felt pretty low motivation after having kind of a poor trip and feeling pretty weak. That’s what I did and that’s why I did the Kris Peters thing.
Neely Quinn: Got it. So, we have a few minutes left and I just wanted to get your basic rundown of your thoughts on diet and kind of what you eat. I think part of a lot of people’s issue is they don’t know what to eat at work, like, what to bring that’s healthy and helps them recover, how to balance when they get home. If you’re training at night, which it doesn’t sound like you do very often, how to get enough fuel before training and also what you eat out at the crag. Just any thoughts on that.
Teal Dreher: I have a lot of thoughts on eating, actually. I think there’s two sides of it: one, I am pretty mindful about my diet. Especially in times where I think my schedule is crazy, it is very important for me to have good nutrition and make sure I’m giving my body what it needs. I eat a lot of whole foods, so I don’t really stick to any sort of diet but I definitely don’t eat any garbage, either. I won’t really eat anything that’s, like, pre-packaged or comes in a box or fast food. I eat a lot of vegetables, I eat a lot of salads, I eat a lot of chicken and proteins and stuff. I’ve actually been trying lately to kind of not eat meat for every meal. Like, breakfast will be eggs, sweet potatoes, and greens pretty much every morning. Lunch, I try to bring a salad to work and then dinner, we’ll do a nice dinner with chicken and vegetables and sometimes a carb with it.
The other thought I will say – oh, and recovery nutrition is super important for me, too. I’ve noticed the one time I could probably easily go without eating is right after a workout. I never feel super hungry but if I don’t eat something for recovery, like, I’ll usually have a protein smoothie, if I don’t do that, I won’t recover. I can notice the next day, like, “Oh wow. I feel a difference in my muscles.”
Neely Quinn: Hmm. What kind of protein smoothie do you eat?
Teal Dreher: I was doing whey protein but I actually just started doing a vegan protein that’s made mostly of pea protein, hemp protein, pumpkin seed protein, and I put that in milk, so I have the whole gamut of proteins in there.
Neely Quinn: Okay. You put it in dairy milk?
Teal Dreher: Dairy milk, yep.
Neely Quinn: Do you know what brand you use? Not of the milk but of the vegan protein?
Teal Dreher: Yeah, it’s called Aloha. You can just go to www.aloha.com and they actually have a lot of products. I eat their granola bars, too. They have a lot of products that don’t have any weird ingredients and they’re only sweetened with pure coconut sugar so I really appreciate that.
Neely Quinn: Do you have a sweet tooth at all?
Teal Dreher: I love sweets. That is a problem. [laughs] I really love sweets. I don’t eat anything like candy, that’s not tempting to me, but definitely a good pastry or something, I really enjoy that kind of thing. I save that for/I’m allowed to eat that stuff right before climbing, because I need carbs anyway. That’s when I’ll eat treats is right before climbing but I try to not eat them on rest days or if I’m not doing anything active.
Neely Quinn: It sounds like you’re pretty low-carb most of the time.
Teal Dreher: Yeah, for the most part. I think lately, especially, because my husband is trying to lose weight and he goes pretty low-carb when he loses weight, so that’s also hard, too. It’s also hard because my husband and I have different body types. I’m small and, not that he’s not small, but I don’t have a lot of weight to lose but sometimes it can get in my head. I think it’s a problem with climbing. It gets in your head, like, “Oh, if I lost a couple pounds I would improve in climbing because I’d have less weight to bring up the wall.” It makes sense but I think, for me, it’s actually a really negative thing when I try to lose weight because it actually just stresses me out and I get really anxious and I end up eating more food than I normally would. For me, it’s actually super important to not focus on my weight.
Neely Quinn: Have you ever dropped weight and then climbed and then noticed a difference?
Teal Dreher: I have dropped weight a couple times, kind of on accident. I didn’t notice a huge difference in my climbing but I would say right now I’m probably the heaviest I’ve ever been and I think I’m climbing the strongest I’ve ever climbed. So…
Neely Quinn: That’s good to hear, I mean, as opposed to what we think, like what you were just saying.
Teal Dreher: I think the question of, like, “Do you need to lose weight?” – is that the best way you need to improve? I know for a lot of guys, you know, maybe you have some weight you can lose and that will give you gains. I’ve definitely seen it with my husband. He loses five pounds and he can get five pounds of gains but for me, it just doesn’t work like that. I think it’s important. I think especially women struggle more with it as far as there’s all this stuff associated with how you look and how much you weigh and what that number is. I think it’s important to keep it in perspective and make sure you’re being good to your body.
Neely Quinn: This is great. Thank you. Any other thoughts on diet? I think I interrupted you there.
Teal Dreher: Not necessarily. I guess, for me, I can’t function climbing without calories. I have to bring snacks to the gym. I have granola bars in my bag, just in case, because I can tell when I don’t have enough fuel in my body. I stop being able to physically lock-off on things and sometimes I’m just like, “What’s my problem? Why am I so weak right now?” For sure, if I don’t eat enough while I’m climbing, that’s a real problem.
Neely Quinn: Probably even before you climb, like the day before or the morning and afternoon before.
Teal Dreher: Yeah, for sure.
Neely Quinn: It all adds up.
Teal Dreher: That’s the other thing, too. There’s time where my, either my training is super hectic like with Kris Peters, training five days a week. I felt like, for me, that is not a time that I could watch what I eat too much as far as any kind of calorie restriction or trying to lose weight. I feel like I was already putting a lot of stress on my body from training and so it was super important for me to just eat as much as my body needed to recover for that and be ready for the next workout.
Neely Quinn: So you just follow your hunger?
Teal Dreher: Yeah, definitely.
Neely Quinn: Okay, and including stopping eating when you’re not hungry anymore, which is an important point to make.
Teal Dreher: That’s a really important thing, and that’s actually probably the thing that I struggle with most. I think that I struggle with it most when I’m trying to lose weight. It’s like, I get stressed about food and so I feel almost greedy about it, where I need to get more food right now. I need it. I find, for me, it works best if I just really, kind of, be mindful that the food that I’m putting in my body is healthy. I try to be mindful of, “Am I hungry or am I just bored?” I think, for me, focusing on weight or even how much I’m eating is just – it doesn’t work out for me.
Neely Quinn: One last question. What kinds of foods do you bring when you’re climbing outside?
Teal Dreher: When I’m climbing outside I’ll like to bring – that’s when, if we go to a bakery in the morning or a coffee shop, I’ll bring a pastry out. I like carbs, for sure, when I climb. I’ll also make homemade mochi. It’s a Hawaiian thing with rice flour, coconut milk, and a little bit of sugar. I feel like it is super sustaining because it has complex and simple carbs and it has fat in it and a little protein so I actually eat that quite a bit when I’m out climbing.
Neely Quinn: It’s just that? You don’t bring anything substantial like a big sandwich or salad or anything?
Teal Dreher: If I’m climbing all day I will, like, I’ll bring a bagel or something. If I bring something with too much, like, too heavy or too much protein, I think right after I eat it I think I’m done for the day. [laughs] I get sleepy. I can’t eat too much when I’m climbing or I think it starts to affect my performance.
Neely Quinn: Yeah, and I think everybody’s different. I could eat a Thanksgiving meal and climb. I just need my food. I think it’s important for everybody to figure out their own needs at the crag but I appreciate you telling me what you do. I think that that is all the questions I have, unless there’s anything else you want to add or any parting thoughts for climbers?
Teal Dreher: The only thing I would say is I think it’s really cool being a female climber this day and age because we have so many strong women to look up to. I think in the past, even, decade, we’re maybe still the minority but girls are crushing it and I think that’s really cool to see.
Neely Quinn: Yeah, and you’re one of them so great work with that.
Teal Dreher: [laughs] Hey, you too!
Neely Quinn: Thanks. Thanks for your time!
Teal Dreher: Thank you so much for talking with me!
Neely Quinn: Yeah, of course.
Neely Quinn: I hope you enjoyed that interview with Teal. If you want to learn more about her you can go to www.tealasaurus.wordpress.com and she’s also on instragram @tealasaurus. I really appreciated talking with her and learning more about how to balance work, life, and climbing and how she has gotten so strong and the little tidbits that she’s learned from all of the trainers that she’s followed. I hope you enjoyed that interview. Definitely leave comments in the episode page if you have any feedback about this kind of interview, like, do you want more of them? Do you want fewer of them? Just in general, what you want from the show.
Coming up on the podcast I interviewed Kyle Clinkscales, who is the head coach for Team Texas and those kids just crush it at comps and outside. I wanted to talk to him about training kids and then I have an interview with Sean McColl right now, or right after this, and that will come out in a couple weeks. I have some really great things coming out.
If you still need more help with your own training, we have help for you all over our site. We have training programs, we have online training with Kris, and two of our training programs are subscription programs where every week you get three new workouts. We have one for boulderers and we have one for route climbers, however, what I’ve found is that, a lot of times, people who only have bouldering facilities to train at actually use our bouldering program to train for routes. My friend Kirsten, who’s been following that program for many, many weeks now, she just emailed me with an update, which was awesome. Also, just so you know, she had shoulder surgery about a year and a half ago, pretty intense shoulder surgery, so her giving me an update on her training is not only awesome because she’s coming back from that but also because she’s using our program. She says:
“Happy update. So, spring has finally enabled Rumney climbing for the first time since mid-December and in my first three days outside this spring I sent my two projects from last season, a .12c called Good Earth and a scary-as-hell .12b called Whip Tide. It’s George Squibb’s route from way back when. I sent the .12b and another hardish route just yesterday. I am shocked that I am sending so much. I consider two mid-12s in two outings a lot of sending. Since I don’t do much indoor sport climbing at all these days it has to be all the Training Beta bouldering work, plus some endurance workouts I add, and yoga plus running. I don’t know how much positive feedback you get from clients so I’m hoping this doesn’t sound too much like spray but I wanted you to know that what you’re offering is making a huge difference for me. It works.”
Thank you Kirsten. I love hearing from you and if you guys want to check out the bouldering program, you just have to go to www.trainingbeta.com and then at the top there is a tab called ‘Training Programs’ and they’re right there. I hope that helps you understand what we’re offering a little bit more and thanks for listening to this episode. I will talk with you next week.