What We Talked About

• Why she did highball boulders and why she doesn’t anymore
• Where her climbing is going
• Why trad climbing is so satisfying to her
• How she changed her approach to comp climbing
• Who trains her
• Her home training set up
• What she eats and why

Related Links

• Nina Williams on Instagram
• Nina Williams on Facebook
• Trailer for Za, a movie about Nina, Daniel, Nalle, and Dave Graham

Training Programs for You

• Check out our Route Climbing Training Program for route climbers of all abilities.
• Our other training programs: Training Programs Page.

FrictionLabs Discount

FrictionLabs (my favorite chalk company by far) is offering you a discount on their awesome chalk – woot!

Please Review The Podcast on iTunes!

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Photo Credit

Beau Kahler

Transcript

Neely Quinn: Welcome to the TrainingBeta podcast, where I talk with climbers and trainers about how we can get a little better at our favorite sport. I’m your host, Neely Quinn, and today we’re on episode 40 where I talked with Nina Williams who is a V13 boulderer, a budding trad climber, a really great competition climber, and I talked with her about how she trains, what she eats, why, what supplements she takes, how she trains for competitions – which is kind of interesting – and her perspective on climbing.

So, she has a lot of wisdom to give and I really enjoyed this interview with her. Before I get into it I want to let you guys know a little bit about what’s been going on with us. First of all, we moved into a normal-sized house, or apartment, in Boulder from our very, very uncomfortably tiny studio that we had been living in for months that was supposed to be temporary.

Anyway, about six days after we moved in Seth went in for shoulder surgery. He wasn’t crippled – I don’t mean crippled, but he wasn’t not able to climb or use it before he went into surgery. He was actually climbing 5.13 in the gym but it was hurting him quite a bit and he knew that he had a torn labrum, so he opted to get it done before the end of the year because his deductible was filled anyway, so it was free.

He went in and he had a tenodesis, a biceps tenodesis, done where they take the biceps tendon off of your labrum and reattach it to your arm. That way it stops tugging on your labrum. They didn’t actually have to repair the labrum this time like they did last time for him. They just sort of shaved off the tear a little bit so it would stop bothering him and then they removed a bone spur and they removed some bursitis and I think that was it.

This time his recovery is probably going to be much faster than his last one. When I had the same surgery done I was climbing after five weeks, so we’ll keep you updated on that. I think he’s going to write a blog post or two about it because it seems like a lot of you guys are injured, unfortunately, and we get emails from you guys all the time saying, “My shoulder’s messed up and what should I do?” We’re just trying to keep you guys apprised of our shoulder issues so that maybe you can learn from us.

Okay, besides that we have some exciting news. Kris Peters is the guy who/he’s the trainer who created our six week power endurance program, and our bouldering, and our route subscription programs. The bulk of what’s on the site is done by Kris and we’ve had a lot of success with people using those programs however, we knew there was a really big need for more personal training online because a lot of you guys don’t have access to trainers near you. Kris is going to do that. We already have Dan Mirsky doing that but we’ve added Kris Peters now, who’s going to do: you can get a five week program designed just for you from him. You can also have support during those five weeks through Skype and emails with him. He also does video analysis of your climbing and then he’ll also do just plain old Skype calls so you guys can just chat.

If you want to do that you can go to www.trainingbeta.com and there’s a ‘Coaching’ tab at the top, or ‘Personal Training.’ I changed it, so there’s a ‘Personal Training’ tab at the top and he’s under there. If you want more help with your climbing and you want it to be more individualized, there you go.

I’ll get into the interview now. Here’s Nina Williams. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

 

Neely Quinn: Welcome to the show, Nina. Thanks for joining me.

 

Nina Williams: Thanks for having me.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, alright, so for anyone who doesn’t know who Nina Williams is, could you give me a description of yourself?

 

Nina Williams: Yeah. I’m a professional rock climber based in Boulder, Colorado. I’m currently sponsored by Adidas Outdoor, 5.10 Climbing, Organic pads, Giddy hand salve, and Gnarly Nutrition.

 

Neely Quinn: Which one is that?

 

Nina Williams: Giddy hand salve and Gnarly Nutrition.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh, Giddy. Okay.

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, I have been climbing for the past 13 years, competing for about 12 of those years but doing a lot more outdoor climbing as of late.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, that’s what I’ve been reading. So, you train quite a bit.

 

Nina Williams: I do, yes. I definitely go through phases so there will be months where I’m really motivated, and I’m actually just moving into one of those phases right now, but there will also be phases where I’m really unmotivated and it’s really difficult for me to get out of that. It’s always up and down for me.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, it seems like a natural thing to have times when you’re motivated and times when you’re not.

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, cause you can’t keep going on and on and on forever. It’s definitely good to have a break.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah. Alright, so you’re in a point right now where you’re not training super hard?

 

Nina Williams: Well, I’m in a point where I’m moving into getting psyched on training again.

 

Neely Quinn: What does that look like?

 

Nina Williams: I went to South Africa this past summer and I was there for two months, which was great and awesome, and then once I got back to Boulder in August – and this has kind of been a long break for me – and from August until now I’ve been very unmotivated and I can’t really place my finger on why. I was just really psyched on getting outdoors and not psyched on disciplining myself, so now I’ve finally found things to motivate me a bit more for 2016 and I’ve actually gone to the gym. I feel like the first step is always the hardest but I’ve taken those first steps over the past couple of weeks and now I’m definitely getting into the groove of things.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay. So, let’s back up here. You’ve been climbing for 13 years. You’re 25, right?

 

Nina Williams: Yep.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so you’ve been climbing since you were just a kid.

 

Nina Williams: Yes.

 

Neely Quinn: And where did you start?

 

Nina Williams: I started in Rhode Island, actually, in New England.

 

Neely Quinn: Is there a good gym in Rhode Island?

 

Nina Williams: It was good for me at the time

[laughs] and it’s still a good local gym. I started at what was called Rhode Island Rock Gym in Lincoln, Rhode Island but it’s now called Rock Spot. I would also head up to Rumney, New Hampshire every weekend and sport climb up there, too.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh, okay. So you started sport climbing?

 

Nina Williams: Sport climbing and bouldering. We have a local bouldering area called Lincoln Woods, also in in Lincoln, that I would probably go to as much as Rumney, so it was a good balance.

 

Neely Quinn: And it seems like you, obviously, you focus on bouldering at this point.

 

Nina Williams: Yes, yep.

 

Neely Quinn: What was the decision-making factor there?

 

Nina Williams: When I was younger it was just easier. Lincoln Woods was about 15 minutes away from my house and it’s filled with a lot of good moderates from V2 to V8, so I had a lot of stuff to play on as a kid. Then, honestly, it was just easier to compete in when I was growing up, too. It became a very social thing for me and I love being social so I just kind of evolved into that.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you ever do any other kinds of climbing at this point?

 

Nina Williams: I’ve actually been getting into trad climbing a little bit. I see trad climbing as the future of climbing for me, personally. I love bouldering and it’s given me so much over the past 13 years but I’m almost looking for something else now. At this point I’m looking for a little more mentality, a little bit of fear factor in my climbing, so trad climbing – I’ve only gone a few times, but it really gives me that satisfaction.

I’m not rushing into it. I’m still learning a lot of rope management and the basics of gear placement and I still have a lot of, well, not a lot, but I still have some bouldering goals I want to finish up but I will definitely be moving into trad in the future.

 

Neely Quinn: That’s interesting to hear you say that you want sort of a fear factor in your climbing because you’ve done quite a few highballs, correct?

 

Nina Williams: Yes.

 

Neely Quinn: Tell me about that. Why don’t you get the fear factor in highballing?

 

Nina Williams: Well, I definitely do get the fear factor in highball bouldering but the difference is if I fall in highball bouldering, it’s a guarantee that I’m going to get hurt. I’ve realized that with a lot of my highball ascents. I’ve realized it’s not worth it and trad climbing, obviously I’m a lot higher, and if all of my gear rips out if I’m trad climbing I’m going to die, but I just feel like the chances of that are a little bit less than if I fall on a highball boulder. If I pursue something in highball bouldering then it’s inevitable that I’m going to fall high up but with trad climbing it’s not necessarily inevitable that all of my pieces rip out and I’m going to fall 1,000 feet, you know?

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah.

 

Nina Williams: So, I just think trad climbing gives me a little more safety, which sounds a bit weird.

 

Neely Quinn: No, that’s a really interesting answer. I appreciate it. So, when did you realize that it wasn’t worth it to you?

 

Nina Williams: So, I recently did a V9 highball called Footprints, in Bishop, and a video came out about it. Actually, my dad saw it and he was understandably upset and we had a long conversation about it. Even before I talked to him I had kind of misgivings about it because I also don’t want to be known as a highball boulderer. I don’t want to have to push myself to further an image or anything for sponsors or anything. I don’t want that to be involved in highball bouldering so when I talked to my dad about it I was like, ‘You’re right. You’re right in that it’s not worth risking my life or limb for something that I can do in trad climbing, too.’

 

Neely Quinn: I think that’s kind of a cool evolution in your climbing. Let’s talk about your bouldering accomplishments. People always hate this question but I’ll just ask you, what are you most proud of in your bouldering?

 

Nina Williams: I’m honestly most proud of this kind of weird highball, but mostly just scary climb, called Speed of Life in Farley, western Massachusetts. It’s like this – I don’t like putting labels on climbs but it is a height-dependant climb in that it’s just really big moves between crimps. During the crux move there’s this big jump move for me where if you’re taller, your feet stay on footholds but my feet cut every time and if I fell up there there’s just boulders behind the rock where I would just fall and break my back. The boulders are a little scary so it was a really big mental accomplishment for me to finally take that boulder down. It took me – I was working it before I moved to Colorado, when I still lived in New England, so it took me a total of about six years to do, so that was my longest term project.

The other one is my hardest grade, Ray of Light. It’s a V13 in Rocklands, South Africa, and that was a different type of mental battle because I hadn’t climbed V13 before and I was working it alongside Daniel and Nalle and Dave and all of these guys trying Spray of Light, which is the V15 variation. It was interesting being around that high of an energy and telling myself, “Don’t get too invested in this climb. Don’t get emotionally involved. You don’t know if you can send this or not.” It was a very/I forced myself to be very casual about it as opposed to Speed of Life where I was super emotionally invested and there were a lot of tears and whatnot. [laughs]

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I know the feeling. So, working it alongside those guys was probably a mental battle in that, well for me, I can imagine it being that ego thing, too, because here are these guys doing something that’s harder and I don’t know – maybe they did your project really quickly and it probably took some humility on your side to keep going back and back.

 

Nina Williams: Well, it wasn’t necessarily humility. It was more like – okay, we all had to take turns because Spray of Light starts on the same area as Ray of Light and the rotation is there, so Daniel would go, then Jimmy would take a turn, then Carlo would go, then I would have to think, ‘Okay, where do I fit? I have to place myself in this rotation without any humility,’ actually, because if I want to be equal with these guys I have to go in there and take my turn and not feel bad about it, and not be self-conscious. It was actually pretty cool.

 

Neely Quinn: And how did they respond to that?

 

Nina Williams: Oh, they were totally supportive, actually. They would always give me beta. The proudest moment was when I stuck the crux move of Ray of Light in front of all those guys and that’s when a switch turned on for me, actually, was when I heard them all go, “Woah. This could go down.” [laughs]

 

Neely Quinn: Nice. Alright, so that was your first V13 and that’s the only V13 you’ve done, right?

 

Nina Williams: Yes.

 

Neely Quinn: I’m not downplaying that at all. It’s impressive. Then, you’ve done quite a bit of V12’s, right?

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, a fair amount of V12’s.

 

Neely Quinn: Are these things that take you days and days or months and months? Or is this kind of a grade that is okay for you?

 

Nina Williams: V12? Well, I’ve only climbed one V13. V12’s are definitely something that takes me a few days or a few months, well, probably more like a few weeks or a few months depending on how often I go back. I don’t really have a lot of patience for putting months and months and months into a project. If it doesn’t go, or if I don’t do all the moves within, I would say, five or six days then I would usually move on. I’m not saying it’s a good or a bad mentality. It’s just what I’ve done in the past.

 

Neely Quinn: I think that’s a common question that I get from readers and listeners at TrainingBeta. They’re just like, ‘At what point do I give up on a project and start training?’ Is that kind of what you do if you don’t get it in those five or six days? Do you go and train for it?

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, it depends on how psyched I am on the climb. I really judge a climb by aesthetics and how it looks as opposed to the movement. That may sound a bit weird because obviously the climbs that climb well are amazing, but I like to look at a climb and be impressed by its image and the scenery around it. If a climb doesn’t really look that cool or it’s really lowball or something, even if I’ve done all the moves on it and I’m really close, I’ll just be like, ‘Eh.’ I know I won’t even/I’m not going to get that much satisfaction when I get to the top of this climb.

If I see something, and invariably it’s something tall, [laughs] or something that’s surrounded by beautiful scenery I’m like, ‘Okay. I’m going to put a lot of effort into this because I know that I’ll be really psyched when I get to the top.’

 

Neely Quinn: Right. So what have you been doing with trad? Like, where have you been climbing trad lately?

 

Nina Williams: I have been playing around in Boulder Canyon a little bit, and by a little bit I mean twice, but the real place that has been the catalyst for my trad climbing is Yosemite. I went there for my first time back in May, this past May, and I went up with Carlo Traversi on the Nabisco Wall. I didn’t actually trad climb that time, I just followed, but that was enough to get me into the interest of it. Then, I went back to Yosemite this past – oh god – October or November or something? I led most of the pitches on the Rostrum, which is a 900-foot, probably about nine pitch trad climb in – I forget what section it was in. Maybe you can edit that part out [laughs], but anyways I tried this climb called the Rostrum where the crux pitch is .11c and I just can’t explain the satisfaction. The level of satisfaction that I get from trad climbing is just so much more than bouldering.

There was one pitch on the Rostrum that was rated .11b, but it’s .11b crack climbing. I just remember thinking I had to fight so hard on that pitch. There were three separate times where I thought I was going to fall and I thought I could just take a break but I didn’t want to fall on my gear. When I got to the top of that pitch, that one pitch, without falling it was probably prouder than any of my bouldering ascents. I just felt so good and so fulfilled that it was a sinker for me. It was just like, ‘Alright. This is what I want to do.’

 

Neely Quinn: Is that because it was a beautiful line? Because you didn’t give up when you wanted to? What was that all about?

 

Nina Williams: I think the big difference is that I was forced to try hard. In bouldering, and I’ve kind of been learning this about myself in bouldering, I like things to be easy and I like things to flow and I like things to come together. I think that can be attributed to why I don’t like to project things very long. I just like things to be easy. Who doesn’t want things to be easy in life? With trad climbing, when you’re up there you’re forced to try hard because you don’t have any other option, you know? You can fall on gear that may or may not hold depending on how well the gear placement is, but you don’t want to bail either. You’re 900 feet off the ground and you’re like, ‘I have to go up. There’s no other option.’

With bouldering, you know, it’s so easy to just fall off the move and fall onto the pad but with trad climbing, you’re up there and it’s like, ‘Okay, I’m forced into this.’

 

Neely Quinn: That’s interesting because it’s similar to what you said in that movie about your V9 highball ascent, where you were like, ‘This is something I have practiced, I know I can do, and now that I’m up here there’s no other way that I can get down. I have to get up.’ It seems like that’s the mentality that you crave.

 

Nina Williams: Maybe it just shows that I have little self-discipline but it really helps for me, at least, to just be forced into those situations and have to find a way out.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, tell me about comp climbing because I know you did well this year.

 

Nina Williams: Actually, this year – I’ve taken this past year off of serious comp climbing. The only two competitions I did was the B3 bouldering competition at Rock Spot back in the spring and then the past Darkhorse.

 

Neely Quinn: Right, and that’s what I was thinking of, was the Dark Horse, because you won that.

 

Nina Williams: I did win but to be honest, there were a lot of strong competitors there and the finals problems were maybe a little too easy for us so it did come down to flashes. Myself and the girl who got second both flashed all the problems so it went back to redpoint round. There was one competitor, Margo Hayes, who trains at ABC here in Boulder. She’s super strong and is going to be big on the scene. She climbed stronger than me that day and just had one little foot slip in finals but honestly, she was the stronger competitor. I think I just won out of luck. I didn’t really take the Dark Horse as a serious win for me.

 

Neely Quinn: Well, that’s quite a humble perspective on it but you had to have been – actually, let’s talk about your training for competitions. I mean, obviously you were strong enough to keep up with those girls even though there were foot slips here and there. Tell me how you prepared for it.

 

Nina Williams: Like I said, for the past few months I’ve been in a non-training slump. I’ve been finding it really hard to get motivated but I’ve decided to do Nationals in 2016 based on – purely, I don’t care. I don’t know if this is a good mentality to have on the TrainingBeta podcast kind of thing but I don’t care about competitions anymore. I don’t consider them to be a part of my future career and having said that, I want to compete in them again for fun. I have a totally different mentality about it.

The reason I stopped competing in the past year is because in the past I got way too caught up in competitions. I would get really emotional and I would never perform as well as I expected so it became very stressful for me. Now, I’m like, ‘Well, I love outdoor climbing. That is my place and that’s what I’m going to train for.’ I’m going to train for outdoor comps and then I’ll just do indoor comps with no expectations for myself and actually have fun.

That’s what I had going into the Dark Horse comp. I was like, ‘You know what? I’m just going to climb my best even though I haven’t been training very much in the past and we’ll just see how it goes.’ I actually ended up climbing really well.

 

Neely Quinn: So you had been climbing outside quite a bit and that still prepared you for that day, or for that comp.

 

Nina Williams: Yes.

 

Neely Quinn: That’s cool. You think you can keep up that mentality? Like, while you were at the comp, you really kept up the: ‘I’m just having fun. This is no big deal,’ sort of mentality?

 

Nina Williams: Yep, pretty much. I mean, I was still in comp strategy. I still paid attention to what my competitors were climbing and where we were all kind of stacking up against one another but even if I hadn’t been doing well, I would have just been like, ‘This is just like fitness training. I’m still in the gym. I’m still climbing a ton for three hours so it’s all for the better.’

 

Neely Quinn: So, you’re going to do Nationals. Is that in February? I haven’t even looked.

 

Nina Williams: Yes. It’s the last weekend of February. No sorry – the last weekend in January.

 

Neely Quinn: So it’s coming up. You have about six weeks. Sounds like a perfect training cycle. Tell me what you’re going to do and also, I’m really interested in who you work with for preparing your training programs and coaching.

 

Nina Williams: Okay, so let me think. In the past I’ve worked with Team of Two, which was Justen Sjong and Kris Peters but they are no longer working together as a team. I’ve been a little bit on my own in that aspect. I’ve resorted to past workouts, I do a lot of weighted pull-ups, campus board, dead-hanging, and again – this renewed version of training for myself is I am training for the outdoors. I am training for an upcoming trip to Bishop and Red Rock and that’s my motivating factor. If it happens to help in competitions then great.

I’m focusing on a lot of finger strength, a lot of power building, and I do a lot of power endurance exercises on the climbing wall. I’ve actually been focusing on my legs a lot, too, so I haven’t been skipping leg day.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, a couple questions there. If you were training just for comps, how would it be different?

 

Nina Williams: You know, I can’t really/I don’t have a good answer for that because in the past when I have trained just for comps, for me, it never seemed to work out well and that’s why it frustrated me. I think if I did train specifically for comps I would work a lot on mentality. For me, the big drag was getting in front of the problem and I only have five minutes to figure it out, and I would always crumble. I would just do the wrong beta or I would try the same thing again and again and nothing would work and I would get frustrated because I would know I could climb the problem but I just wasn’t smart enough or couldn’t figure it out in the five minutes that I had.

I guess I’ll be practicing that a little bit. I’ve been climbing a lot with Alex Puccio. She’s one of my best friends out here and it’s really motivating to have her next to me and be like, ‘Okay, you need to not hesitate or you need to, obviously, figure out your beta before you get on the climb and just execute in that moment and not second-guess yourself.’ That was a big problem for me, too.

Again, I’m just going into it very casually and not putting any mental pressure on myself and hoping that will perhaps change my mentality.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so when you’re training it seems like mostly what’s going to be different is you’re going to be looking toward your outdoor projects or goals and not even thinking about the comp while you’re training.

 

Nina Williams: Yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: Let’s talk more, if you would, I would love to get more in detail of how you plan to train this time and maybe how that might be different from how you’ve trained in the past. Another quick question: do you plan on picking up a coach or trainer? Would you work with Kris or Justen again in that way?

 

Nina Williams: I probably wouldn’t work with – well, both of them have gone on to do their separate things. I might set-up some sessions with Justen. He’s a really great movement coach and a great mental coach so I think I might set-up three or four sessions with him before Nationals, just to see where I’m at with visualization. I might actually start some training with Patxi. Have you heard of him at all? The really intense competition climber. I’m not saying his last name because I feel like I’m going to butcher it [laughs]. I’m not even going to go there but my friend, Courtney Woods, has been working with him a lot and it’s really intense and I did one of his workouts that’s very centered around pull-ups the other night and I was sore and it felt great, so I might actually do a partnership with her, with him, at some point.

 

Neely Quinn: Cool. Let’s talk about – so you don’t know what you’re going to be doing with Patxi so we’ll ignore that but how many days a week do you train and climb?

 

Nina Williams: Combined, I’ll train and climb about five or six days a week. I’ll take at least one day, if not two, to either active rest or to just do nothing at all, nothing active related.

 

Neely Quinn: What’s active rest for you?

 

Nina Williams: I’ll probably go on a hike or I really like riding my bike if the road is not crazy snowy. Yeah, I really like riding.

 

Neely Quinn: So, 5 – 6 days a week. How many of those are climbing and how many of those are just strictly training.

 

Nina Williams: Strictly training will probably be two or three of those days. Some days I’ll do doubles so I’ll train in the evening and climb in the morning and then probably, I’ll say four of those days will be climbing-related.

 

Neely Quinn: Climbing-related. Then, will you do stuff after or before with weights or weighted pull-ups, or do you save that for their own days?

 

Nina Williams: I usually save those for their own days. I’ll always do anything with weight and training-related first, before climbing. I’ll never climb first and then do a really intense weight or fingerboard-related thing.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh okay. So, how do you warm-up for those? For the pre-workouts?

 

Nina Williams: I have a pretty nice home set-up. I’ve got the Transgression board by Eva Lopez and I have a campus board set-up and I have gymnastics rings so I’ll just do some pull-ups on the gymnastics rings, I’ll do some minor campusing stuff, then I’ll dead hang on the big rung on the Transgression board and that warms me up pretty well.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, and then you’ll go climbing in the gym or outside.

 

Nina Williams: Yep.

 

Neely Quinn: So while you’re training will you try to stay indoors? Or will you go outside just as much as normal?

 

Nina Williams: I go through phases, actually. If I’m really psyched on training I tend to stay indoors a lot more. It just works out better for my schedule, especially here in Colorado where if you want to go climbing outside it’s a half hour to an hour drive, and then depending on where you’re hiking, it could be anywhere from 15 minutes to another hour hike but for me, if I go outside I like to make it a whole day thing. I don’t like to rush or make it about just the climbing. For me, going outside is the whole experience so I’d rather save a full day for it.

 

Neely Quinn: I’m going to stop here for a sec just because I want to let you guys know that FrictionLabs and TrainingBeta have partnered up and FrictionLabs is giving you guys, my loyal listeners, some really great discounts, sometimes up to 50% off of their stuff. Definitely go check that out at www.frictionlabs.com/trainingbeta. Their chalk is different from other brands because it has more magnesium carbonate in it which means that’s the sticky stuff and when I put it on my hands before a climb it feels like it’s stuck to my hands. It covers the whole hand and then you go up the climb and it’s still stuck to your hands so, novel concept, I know.

If you guys are interested in them, like I said, go to www.frictionlabs.com/trainingbeta and give them a try. Thanks for listening.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, I would love to get into the nitty gritty right here so could you tell me what a week looks like for you in terms of climbing and training?

 

Nina Williams: I’m actually usually a bit more organized but because I’m kind of just getting back into the full groove of training I haven’t written a full schedule. I’m kind of making up this particular one but let me think of what I did last week. I started off with arms day, which is the Patxi-centered training. A lot of pull-ups, a lot of hanging core, hanging abs, and then I’ll do legs right after so I’ll do box jumps, squats, dynamic leg movements, essentially, and I’ll get arms and legs day together in one.

Then, the next day, say Tuesday, I would go training – or, I’m sorry, I would go climbing two or three hours, just doing power endurance stuff, 4×4’s, or just trying to get in as many hard problem as possible, and then Wednesday, depending on how I’m feeling, I would – actually, Wednesday I would rest. Either do active rest or a full day rest because Thursday I would want to be fresh and I would do fingerboard stuff. I would campus stuff, dead hanging, and anything centered around my fingers I am always fresh. I never want to be fatigued when I do that because fingers can be delicate things so I never do any of that when I’m tired.

 

Neely Quinn: So you do fingerboard and campus board on the same day?

 

Nina Williams: I will do – nah. I would do fingerboard first and then go climbing that evening, so do a double sesh, then rest the next day. That would be Friday so then Saturday I would do campus board.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so you would rest on Friday and then campus. Would you do campus board in the morning and then climb in the evening on Saturday?

 

Nina Williams: Yep. I have done finger and campus board on the same day, in the same session, but I wouldn’t do either of them as intensely as if I were doing either of them separately, if that makes sense.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh, right. That makes sense. Okay, so that’s a pretty intense week. How long would you say you’re working out on each day?

 

Nina Williams: Honestly, the first day, arms and legs, is the least intense. I probably workout for about two hours. Each of these training sessions only last about two hours maximum. Each climbing session, same thing, two or two and a half hours. I’m really not into/I can’t say I’ve ever been accused of overtraining. I like taking a lot of rest because if I just get to a point where I’m really tired, it’s really hard for me to push myself and I’m very injury-conscious. One of my highest priorities is to not get injured so if I feel hurt or I feel really tired or too achy, I won’t push myself because I’m like, ‘You know what? It’s not worth it.’

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, that’s smart. So if you say two hours per session, on a Thursday if you’re doing fingerboard in the a.m. and then climbing in the p.m., two hours each?

 

Nina Williams: Yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: So then my other question here is, a lot of people would hear that and be like, ‘I can’t do that. I don’t have time for that.’ What is your job situation?

 

Nina Williams: I climb full time. I have a lot of time on my hands in that aspect to plan all of my training, but I also manage social media for Adidas Outdoor, for their North American athletes, so all of my work is computer-based and I make my own schedule in that aspect.

 

Neely Quinn: How many hours do you work a week?

 

Nina Williams: It depends. I do a little bit here and there every single day. I probably work about an hour and a half every day [laughs] which is pretty nice.

 

Neely Quinn: I read somewhere that you coach at ABC?

 

Nina Williams: I don’t coach anymore. I used to coach at ABC and I loved it. I loved working there and I loved working with the kids but I travel so much as a professional climber that I felt, as a coach, I feel that the coach should put their kids first and should be able to be there for them at all times. I didn’t feel that I was able to give them the attention that they needed with all of my traveling and I’m at a point in my career where I don’t want to sacrifice that, at this point in time. I stopped working there when I got back from South Africa this year but I still go back and visit the kids and hang out with them. They’re awesome.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so financially, how do you make this work? Are your sponsors generous enough in that way?

 

Nina Williams: Yep. I get paid by my sponsors and I also get travel budgets in addition to monthly stipends so it definitely works out well. It’s not/don’t get me wrong, it’s not a ton of money and it’s definitely not easy to figure out how I make all the traveling work and everything, but sponsors are pretty psyched if I give them a good reason as to why I should go traveling.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, well, it’s really good for me to hear that you get paid as an elite athlete. I’m a pretty big advocate of athletes getting paid. Like, when I heard that Puccio wasn’t getting paid by anybody I was literally furious.

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, it’s really frustrating and it can be really frustrating as an athlete, especially in this day and age where it’s not just about how hard you climb. It’s really/it comes down to social media but it also comes down as to how your personality is and interacting with your fans and just being an all-arounder, is what it comes down to.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so let’s talk about your goals for 2016. I know you said that you are going to do Nationals and you said it seems like trad is going to be a big part of 2016 but specifically, what are your goals?

 

Nina Williams: So, the goals that I have in mind, in particular, and my dad is not going to be happy to hear this but I have two remaining highball goals that I want to finish up before I make the transition to trad. They’re both in Bishop. I’m not fully committed to them because I haven’t tried either on a rope to make sure I can do all of the moves, and that’s my rule for highball bouldering. If I want to do a climb I have to be able to do all of the moves comfortably, but I would like to attempt Evilution Direct, straight up the Grandpa Peabody boulder, which is V11, as well as Ambrosia, which is on the same boulder, on the other side, which is another V11.

 

Neely Quinn: That’s the one that Kevin did, right?

 

Nina Williams: Yes. And again, I’m fully prepared to back off from either of them if they don’t go for me but I would like to at least try.

 

Neely Quinn: Then what else?

 

Nina Williams: Then after that, I really want to go to Indian Creek. I love crack climbing. I learned that in Yosemite so I really want to hone in on getting good at gear placements in trad.

 

Neely Quinn: Anything else?

 

Nina Williams: Nothing else as of yet. I want to go back to Yosemite, obviously. I’d like to just learn more about trad climbing. I feel like a beginner again. It’s just a whole new world for me so I want to get a lot of mileage under my belt. If we’re talking, like, really, really long term – oh, you know what? I totally forgot I have a bouldering project here in Colorado. It’s a V14 called Midnight Express and I have done all of the moves except one, and that one is really, really difficult so I would like to finish that off as well. If we’re talking long term, as in the rest of my life, it’s a little number-centered but the continuity is kind of satisfying to me. I would like to try to climb V14, 5.14 sport, and 5.14 trad in my lifetime. So, I would like to finish up Midnight Express and then just kind of go from there into these other disciplines of climbing.

 

Neely Quinn: Not bad. I wanted to ask you about your height, and I know this is totally out of left field here, but you’re not the tallest person in the world. Can you give me your stats on that?

 

Nina Williams: Yeah. I’m 5’3” and I have a +1, so about a 5’4” arm span.

 

Neely Quinn: And that makes some boulders difficult for you, I’m assuming.

 

Nina Williams: Yes, it does. It makes some boulders impossible, actually, but it’s kind of good. It’s made me a very dynamic climber but honestly, there are a lot of boulder problems out there that suit short people as well so it’s a give and take.

 

Neely Quinn: It seems appropriate that you would be training with Puccio a lot since you seem to be similar sized.

 

Nina Williams: Yes, it’s nice.

 

Neely Quinn: Are there any things that you train specifically for being short, like lock-off strength or anything?

 

Nina Williams: No, not really. I don’t like to focus on my height in regards to climbing unless it’s obvious I’m not going to be able to do this climb because I’m so short. Otherwise, I don’t think of it as, ‘Oh, I’m too short to do this move,’ or ‘I need to train because I’m short.’ It’s more like, ‘I need to train because I’m not strong enough for it.’

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, but you said that is has made you a more dynamic climber.

 

Nina Williams: Yes. So, I do need to jump a lot.

 

Neely Quinn: Is that why you train legs?

 

Nina Williams: It is. I’ve been kind of genetically blessed with stronger legs. I would say I got it from my moma but I’ve found that box jumps have been a huge help in just being able to make dynamic movements. Building up the butt muscles, all the glutes, have been able to help to really toe in on moves and keep my feet attached to the wall as opposed to coming off. I also do a lot of skiing so that’s also why I train legs, too. That’s my other hobby.

 

Neely Quinn: I didn’t know that. So you’ll be skiing here this winter?

 

Nina Williams: Oh yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you feel that helps your climbing?

 

Nina Williams: I mean, it helps in that it’s – I don’t know. I can’t say it noticeably helps my climbing. The leg muscles are a lot different, it’s more endurance based, but it helps mentally because it’s a nice break from climbing and I don’t feel competitive in skiing at all, so it’s nice.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, it’s important to take your mind off of it since you’re doing it full time.

 

Nina Williams: Yep.

 

Neely Quinn: So, this year was a big year for you, having done V13. I’m wondering if it was just sort of a natural progression for you, where it was like maybe you could have always, or could have done V13 for years before but it was more of a mental breakthrough, or do you feel like you did something different in your training in order to get to that level?

 

Nina Williams: I think it was mental in that – let me think about this one. It’s a hard one. It was definitely a mental thing in that it wasn’t that I didn’t think I could climb V13, I just never tried. It was purely situational, if that makes sense, because we would go up to this thing that all the guys were trying, the Spray of Light project, and the Ray of Light climb just suited me really well. The crux move revolves around being able to get your fingers into this really thin crack and then doing a very dynamic move off of it to kind of a jug crack, so once I started playing around on that and once I stuck the crux move, then that’s when the mentality shifted for me. It was like, ‘Oh, I just did the crux on this V13. Maybe I can do the rest of it.’ It was more in that one instance. It wasn’t like I thought to myself, ‘Okay, I need to start trying V13’s.’ It was almost accidental, which was a good thing, because it really opened my mind for what else could I accomplish. It was like, ‘Okay, I can do this. What else am I missing out on?’

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah. Was it sort of like you just had never put yourself in front of a V13 or …

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, pretty much.

 

Neely Quinn: So it seems like maybe V14 wouldn’t be unattainable.

 

Nina Williams: Exactly. Honestly, it really helps to have such a strong climbing partner like Alex. She has been a really driving factor in my motivation, even before the V13. It’s funny because she and I went to Switzerland back in 2013, before she had climbed V13, and I was having the same conversations with her. I would be like, ‘You can…’ you know, she was obviously so strong and I would say to her, “It’s totally mental. You need to try V13’s,” and she had all this doubt. Now it’s switched and she’s the one telling me, “Don’t doubt yourself. You’ve got to try harder things.”

 

Neely Quinn: Is it ever hard being so close with her?

 

Nina Williams: No, honestly. I guess there are moments where I’m just like, ‘Well, it’s just Alex. She’s super strong. She’s like a superhero,’ and she’s a huge inspiration to me so I never compare myself to her because I know she’s on a totally different level than me. That’s not putting myself down, that’s just recognizing how amazing Alex is as a climber and as a human being. That’s very, very inspiring to me. Maybe there have been a few moments where I have been jealous or like, ‘Oh god, I wish I could be like that,’ but it’s never negatively affected my climbing. It’s always been like, ‘Okay. Alex is my height. She and I have a similar reach. Obviously she’s 10 times stronger than me but it doesn’t mean that I can’t ever attain that, too.’

 

Neely Quinn: Do you think that there’s a genetic – obviously there’s a genetic difference between you guys, but you know, talking to her about what she thinks makes her so strong. It’d be interesting to get your perspective on it. How much do you think is just in her genes or in the difference between your mental approaches or in her training? What do you think the differences are?

 

Nina Williams: She’s obviously very naturally gifted as an athlete. That’s been proven – I think I met her when she was 16 and she was climbing just as well as I was at the time, as I am now, when she was 16. She had that ability ever since she was younger but the level she has achieved right now, I know she has achieved purely through hard work and training. She broke that barrier through a lot of training and that just makes my respect for her go through the roof, because she’s very disciplined, she’s very motivated, and I’ve seen that switch in her.

So yeah, she does have genetics and natural ability but to get to where she’s at now was all on her own strength of will.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, cool. That’s interesting to hear from you.

Okay, so neither of us want to spend too much time on this but I do want to talk a little bit about FFAs. You’ve been sort of a voice on this topic and I’m wondering what your opinions are, some of your own FFAs and the responses you’ve gotten from males and females.

 

Nina Williams: Sorry – what’s the…?

 

Neely Quinn: There were a lot of questions in there, sorry. I guess tell me about some of your first female ascents and if nothing else, just your opinion about whether or not they should be a thing or not.

 

Nina Williams: Okay, so actually these are/my two good examples are my proudest ascents. The Speed of Life, the V10 in New England, was a first female ascent and that was – well here, let me start with The Ray of Light, the V13 in Rocklands, was a first female ascent. I think that is worth noting, I’ll say historical, because it’s within the history of climbing, but I think it is worth noting in the vast, global climbing community because it is a really difficult grade, it’s been tried by a lot of men and I happened to be the first woman to climb it. I don’t know how many other women have tried it but it’s definitely, undeniably a hard climb.

Speed of Life, on the other hand, is not as hard. It’s a V10 and I got the first female ascent of that. It meant a lot to me because it’s within my home region, I had been trying it for awhile, but in the grand scheme of things in the global climbing community, it’s not that notable because it’s V10. I don’t know if many other women had tried it but it just meant a lot to me, so ultimately, the whole idea of FFAs comes down to: if it’s meaningful to a woman, nobody can take that away from her. If she wants to be proud of it then the whole idea of feminism is women can do whatever they want and it’s nobody’s place to tell them or her what is important to her, but it is important for the community and the woman to recognize that anything can be important to her as a woman but is it relevant to the rest of the community?

I know/I think there have been instances in the past where women have used instances of FFAs to further their career, even though they may not have been that notable to the community. It’s really just up to the person and the community to decide whether they want to choose it to be relevant or not.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you think that they’ve been relevant to you?

 

Nina Williams: Oh yeah. I mean, my FFAs have been for sure relevant. I’ve done FFAs, you know, of random V8’s or 5.12’s and stuff like that in random pockets of the East Coast but they’re not, I mean, it was cool to me but I didn’t spout about it because it doesn’t really matter on a community scale and I recognize that.

 

Neely Quinn: So, when you do send these things, because I know there are lot of women out there who do send hard things and I’m thinking like Alex Johnson and Pamela Shanti – I can’t think of her name particularly, but they’ve gotten negative feedback from men, saying, “Oh, well it must be soft,” or “Did you really do that? I don’t believe you.” Have you ever experienced anything like that?

 

Nina Williams: I have not. I’ve heard of those cases, too, and it’s just mind-boggling to me. I don’t how I would personally deal with it. I would probably get really angry and say, “No! This is what I think about it, this is my stance, this is my opinion, and there’s nothing that you can say or do to take that away from me,” because everyone can have their own opinions, obviously, and everyone is entitled to that but – sorry if I’m not allowed to say this, but fuck ‘em. [laughs]

 

Neely Quinn: [laughs] That’s good.

Alright, moving on. You are quite a lean climber – totally changing the subject here – and I always talk to people about their diets and their thoughts on body weight. Can you tell me a little bit about your diet?

 

Nina Williams: Yeah. So, my diet is, I keep it really simple. I don’t do a lot of scientific research or I don’t really pay attention to ratios or calories. I eat a lot of vegetables. I eat a lot of chicken, a lot of fish, I eat some red meat, but not as much as I used to in the past. If I’m in a really strict training mode I won’t eat bread or pasta because those are the two things that actually give me stomach aches sometimes, but I’ll still eat carbs. I’ll still eat quinoa and sweet potatoes and stuff like that. It’s pretty simple for me. Whole foods that are healthy and I eat when I’m hungry, too.

 

Neely Quinn: So you’re not restricting calories?

 

Nina Williams: No, I don’t restrict calories.

 

Neely Quinn: And what about dairy?

 

Nina Williams: I eat dairy. It actually doesn’t negatively affect me. I did an experiment at the beginning of this year because I was actually getting a lot of stomach pains that were pretty debilitating and I didn’t know where they were coming from. I tried this diet where I took out all carbohydrates, all dairy, all gluten, and all grains to see what was making me feel bad. I would slowly incorporate one of these things back into my diet for a couple weeks and the thing that made me feel bad, that I realized, was bread and pasta. So those are things that I tend to avoid now.

When I incorporated dairy back into my diet it was totally fine. I mean, maybe it made my farts smell bad but [laughs] oh well.

 

Neely Quinn: So bread and pasta, but what about baked goods besides bread, like cookies or cake or things like that?

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, the thing with that is I won’t overeat on cake or cookies. I’ll just get really satisfied with one or two cookies or a piece of cake but with bread and pasta, I’m one of those people that can just sit down and just eat a ton of food in one sitting. We would make spaghetti for dinner and I would have a full plate of spaghetti. I love spaghetti, and I love pasta and bread but I would eat it all and I would just feel so bad afterwards. It’s really portion control. That’s the hardest aspect I have in my diet, actually.

 

Neely Quinn: How many times a day do you eat?

 

Nina Williams: It’s not timed, really. I’ll eat breakfast in the morning, I’ll snack midday or have lunch, depending on what I’m doing, then I’ll have dinner in the evening and then probably a little snack afterwards, so probably four times a day.

 

Neely Quinn: So, a lot of people are into, or are curious about, recovery drinks and protein powders and things like that. Do you use anything like that?

 

Nina Williams: I do, and I’m obviously sponsored by Gnarly Nutrition so I use all of their products and I really, truly do enjoy them. Gnarly has a supplement/powder which are BCAAs, branched chain amino acids, and it basically pumps me up during a workout and gives me a little bit more energy to continue through the workout and it helps with muscle repair and recovery during and after the workout. I always feel a bit better the next day if I workout really hard after drinking the BCAAs but I also use their whey protein, which essentially has the same effect with a little more calories, so I’ll just throw either of those in a smoothie.

 

Neely Quinn: Are you doing it right after a workout? While you’re working out?

 

Nina Williams: I’ll drink the BCAAs before/a little bit before I workout, like half an hour before I workout, and then I’ll drink the rest of it within the next 30 minutes of my workout. It’s always 30 minutes before and after. That’s what I focus on with the smoothies.

 

Neely Quinn: So before and 30 minutes after, or within?

 

Nina Williams: Yep.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, that’s what I didn’t understand. What about the whey protein?

 

Nina Williams: With the whey protein I’ll do it afterwards. Always after, and again, I just want to put the disclaimer that I haven’t ever been into the science of this. I’ve just always kind of experimented with what makes me feel good by using these powders and this just happens to be the timeline that makes me feel the best.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah. I mean, I have been into the science of it. As a nutritionist, I had to study and more and more it just is like it doesn’t matter what the science says. It’s a really individual thing what works for people. So, have you found if you don’t have these things during and after, there really and truly is a difference in the way that you feel during and then after your workouts?

 

Nina Williams: I do notice a big difference after the workout. Generally the next day, actually. For instance, I just started using the BCAAs again this past week and I did a pretty hard workout yesterday and I drank the BCAAs and everything was good and I feel great today. I’m about to go on a long climbing session after this interview but maybe a week ago, when I didn’t take any BCAAs, I just felt so sore and obviously I could still go out and climb but I would wake up in the morning and I was just like, ‘Oh, everything hurts.’ [laughs] It definitely helps.

 

Neely Quinn: You know, that’s a question that I have, too. My husband, Seth, is considering having shoulder surgery on his other shoulder. He just had his first shoulder done earlier this year and he’s like, ‘My shoulders hurt all the time,’ basically, or his other shoulder. Maybe it’s just that when you train at this level you’re just always in pain, so I’m wondering if that’s something that you ever experience.

 

Nina Williams: Yes, actually, especially during the first/particularly during the first month or few weeks of training, but yeah – there’s always this underlying ache and it shouldn’t be to the point where it’s debilitating or you feel like you can’t pick something up. It shouldn’t ever be hurting to the point where you’re like, ‘Oh my god. I’m in so much pain,’ but it should be this constant, ‘Okay, I feel tired. That’s good, because I worked out hard yesterday,’ you know? If you’re still feeling tired after a day of rest I think that’s something to notice. I think consider taking another day of rest but, in general, the day after I train if I have that underlying ache that’s not crazy but if it’s there, then I think that’s a good thing.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay. Cool. What do you think about bodyweight? Have you fluctuated at all or have you always been kind of lean?

 

Nina Williams: I actually maintain – it’s difficult for me to lose and to gain bodyweight. Ever since I was a freshman in high school I’ve been between 115 and 120. The most I ever weighed was coming back from South Africa after two months of eating a ton of red meat every single day. I weighed about 127. That’s the most I’ve ever weighed but in general, my average weight has been 120 and that’s been very easy for me to maintain.

I’ve actually tried to drop down to 115 and when I was doing that elimination diet I mentioned earlier, most noticeably when I cut out carbs, I dropped really quickly down to about 116 but I felt like crap. I have no energy, I didn’t even have/I couldn’t even climb for an hour without getting exhausted and it’s funny because I had a competition coming up and I was a week away and I was talking to my friend. I was like, ‘I can’t. I don’t have the energy to compete.’ I was like, ‘I have to eat carbs, I have to break it,’ so I started eating a little bit of bread and quinoa and stuff like that and immediately I felt a huge difference and I felt so much better. So, the weight thing for me is like, because it’s been so consistent, essentially, I don’t really/it’s not really a factor in my mind for the most part.

 

Neely Quinn: Right. That’s something that I try to tell people all the time because it seems like climbers want to do low-carb and high fat and it’s just – this is what I hear over and over again, is that you just don’t have very much energy on that diet.

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, it’s really bad. Even, honestly, even when I was in South Africa eating meat all of the time and, well, essentially meat and vegetables, I was still climbing very strong. I didn’t get on a scale and realize how heavy I was until we left, when we were at the airport. I wouldn’t say that that was, obviously, a sustainable diet but I think it is mental, too. I felt like I was climbing strong and I was climbing strong and then the minute I saw that I was 127 I was like, ‘Oh my god. I weigh too much,’ but it wasn’t a factor when I was actually climbing.

 

Neely Quinn: You said that you think that was because you were eating a bunch of red meat?

 

Nina Williams: Well, that’s my assumption. We were just eating a lot in general. The food in South Africa is so good and so cheap that we would eat a ton, all day.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah.

 

Nina Williams: It was probably more the portion control than the red meat.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, because it seems like red meat is just mostly protein, just like chicken and fish, so that would be weird unless you have some sensitivity to it and it was putting water weight on you, but anyway, that’s a whole different conversation.

 

Nina Williams: See? This is where the science comes in. I’m just like, ‘I don’t know. It was probably all the lamb.’ [laughs]

 

Neely Quinn: Because that’s what I doing differently, so…yeah. I think that that’s all my questions. I would love to tell people where they can find you online.

 

Nina Williams: Yeah, I’m on Instagram @sheneenagins. I also have a Facebook page, www.facebook.com/ninawilliamsclimber and I have a blog, www.ninawilliams.tumblr.com. Anyone can feel free to message or email me with questions or stories that they have.

 

Neely Quinn: Thanks so much for your wisdom and for telling me about your life. I appreciate it.

 

Nina Williams: Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. This was really enjoyable.

 

Neely Quinn: Cool. Have a great day.

 

Nina Williams: Thanks! You too.

 

Neely Quinn: Thanks.

Alright, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Nina Williams. You can find her on Instagram @sheenagins and on Facebook at Nina Williams.

Coming up on the podcast I have yet another interview with a British trainer/climber, David Mason. Also, Emily Harrington and I are talking about doing an interview, which I’ve been wanting to do for a long time. Also, Pamela Shanti Pack and I are talking. She is a really badass offwidth climber if you haven’t heard of her. She’s also, unfortunately, gotten some backlash for doing some first female ascents. Guys don’t like that sometimes, when women do things that they can’t, and so we’re going to talk a little about the negativity and the positives and talk about how she trains for offwidths.

Other than that, if you guys need more help with your own training, remember that we always have on our site training programs that you can follow on your own at the gym or at home. We have our bouldering, strength and power program, our route training program – both of those are subscription programs that give you three workouts every week. They’re super easy to follow. You just go in, follow the instructions, and then come home knowing that you’ve done really good work.

Then, also remember that we have personal training now online. Kris Peters and Dan Mirsky will do that with you and sort of make a plan for you or help you make a plan for yourself. That can be a little bit more individualized. Go to www.trainingbeta.com and at the top, in the menu, you’ll see ‘Online Training Programs’ and ‘Personal Training.’

Thanks for listening all the way to the end. If you liked what you heard I would love it if you would give me a really honest iTunes review. Other than that, I will talk to you next week. Thanks for listening.

 

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