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Date: August 12th, 2015

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AboutĀ Jon Cardwell

Jon Cardwell is a 26 year-old Albuquerque native living in Boulder, Colorado, who climbs 5.14d and V15, along with being one of the top male bouldering competitors in the U.S. He’s a sponsored climber and also holds jobs as a route setter and youth climbing coach at Movement Climbing and Fitness in Boulder.

I’ve been hearing all about him crushing Rifle and the Fortress this year, so we sat down and talked about how he trains for that, what he’s psyched on right now, and his plans to go back to France this year and finally do Biographie. He’s a super humble, sweet and well-spoken guy, and I really enjoyed this conversation with him.

What we talked about:

  • How he trained for The Game (V15)
  • HowĀ he trains for hard routes
  • His attempt at Biographie (5.15a) this spring, and what he’ll do differently nextĀ trip
  • His successful Rifle season this year, including 5.14a onsights
  • His unconventional use of the hangboard and campus board
  • How he gives back as a coach
  • His thoughts on diet and injury care

ThingsĀ We Mentioned

Discount on ArmAid

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Photo Credit

Thanks to Matty Hong for the photo of Jon Cardwell.

Transcript

Neely Quinn: Welcome to the TrainingBeta podcast where I talk to climbers and trainers about how we can get a little better at our favorite sport. Iā€™m your host, Neely Quinn, and today weā€™re on episode 30, where I talked with Jon Cardwell. He is a fellow Boulderite and a super strong climber and really good guy, so I was psyched to sit down with him and talk about his recent success in the Rifle area, like in Rifle and the Fortress, and I also wanted to talk to him about his attempts on Biographie, so we talked about that.

We also talked about how he trained for all that, what heā€™s going to do differently next time for Biographie, and also how he trained for The Game, which is a V15. It was his first V15 and he had to work pretty hard on it and train pretty specifically so it was interesting. His approach is unique so hopefully youā€™ll enjoy that.

Before I get to the interview I need to tell you about a deal that I got for you guys. Armaid is awesome and they created this product that helps you massage your own arms, forearms specifically, so that you donā€™t have to pay for a massage therapist or anything in general. You might have to go sometimes but they created a product that you can use as self-care all the time.

If you go to www.armaid.com they are giving you guys a discount of 10% if you use the code ā€˜climb.ā€™ So, thatā€™s that and today Iā€™m just going to get right into the interview so here is Jon Cardwell. Enjoy.

 

Neely Quinn: Alright, welcome to the show, Jon. Thanks so much for being with me.

 

Jon Cardwell: Thank you. Iā€™m psyched to be here.

 

Neely Quinn: For anybody who doesnā€™t know who Jon Cardwell is, can you give us a brief description of who you see yourself as?

 

Jon Cardwell: Iā€™m a climber based out of Boulder, Colorado. Iā€™m also a route setter and coach at Movement Climbing and Fitness here in Boulder. I grew up in New Mexico. Iā€™ve been climbing for about 15 years and a lot of my roots for climbing started in New Mexico and Hueco Tanks and a bunch of southwest areas and since then Iā€™ve just kind of been traveling all over the world, exploring climbing, exploring a lot of sport climbing, bouldering, a few competitions here and there but now itā€™s just kind of home base in Colorado and trying to get out and climb as much as possible.

 

Neely Quinn: Cool, well youā€™ve done quite a bit in those years I would say.

 

Jon Cardwell:

[laughs] Yeah, itā€™s been a really nice few years. Iā€™ve been really fortunate to have the opportunity to kind of get out there and just explore and climb a bunch.

 

Neely Quinn: How old were you when you started climbing?

 

Jon Cardwell: I think I was 11 or 12. It was right around that age when I started.

 

Neely Quinn: Where did – you were in New Mexico but did you have a good gym that you went to?

 

Jon Cardwell: We had a pretty good gym, as far as what I remember about 15 years ago what climbing gyms were like. It was small. It went through a lot of renovations and stuff. It was called Stone Age and itā€™s nothing like the modern gyms that we see today but it was a good starting point.

We had a lot of rock climbs in New Mexico, actually. Thereā€™s climbing all over the state so I was actually introduced to outdoor climbing really early on soā€¦

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s rare for a young kid.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, it was kind of rare but I think it was a different time in climbing almost, even just 15 years ago. There were – itā€™s so much different now. Being a coach I see these kids starting really young and these incredible climbing facilities that even 10 years ago we didnā€™t have.

 

Neely Quinn: Did you start off bouldering or route climbing or both?

 

Jon Cardwell: Kind of both because when I started climbing, or when I joined the team more or less, they kind of ushered me into the comp scene and at the time there was no bouldering or ABS, really, or for the juniors at least, so I started doing JCCA which was a youth sport climbing series. I would do ropes then but I really liked bouldering.

In fact, when I was really young I was kind of scared of heights a little bit so I kind of preferred bouldering over sport climbing for maybe the first couple years of climbing.

 

Neely Quinn: I actually know you as more of a boulderer. Maybe thatā€™s because Iā€™ve watched you in a lot of comps and a lot of bouldering comps but would you consider yourself one or the other more now?

 

Jon Cardwell: I would say as Iā€™ve evolved as a climber, Iā€™m definitely more of a sport climber, actually. Even in my younger age I was more motivated to go out and climb with a rope and get out, once I got over my fear of kind of being exposed and stuff I started to really like it. As my climbing progressed I realized I was pretty good at bouldering competitions, actually, so I would kind of prefer those events to go compete in stuff like that. I really liked it and that also led to climbing outside quite a bit. You know, bouldering outside at least.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, and I mean youā€™ve bouldered V15 so…do you want to talk about some of your biggest bouldering accomplishments and maybe some highlights?

 

Jon Cardwell: Well, definitely a big highlight for me was climbing The Game a few years ago. I had put a lot of work into it, much more than I think Daniel and Carlo did but I started trying it and I realized that maybe someway it was possible for me. I just kept coming back and I think that really changed me as a climber, as a boulderer at least, because I was forced to kind of dedicate everything just to bouldering for a couple seasons. That was definitely a highlight for me.

 

Neely Quinn: So before that you hadnā€™t really projected much?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, not really long term. Before then I would have boulder projects that lasted a few days or maybe a week or two, but I never came back season after season to try specific boulder problems.

 

Neely Quinn: How long did The Game take you and can you tell us more about that? Where it is and what it is?

 

Jon Cardwell: Well, The Game is a boulder problem thatā€™s actually just up the street from here. Itā€™s in Boulder, Colorado in Boulder Canyon. It was first climbed by Daniel Woods in 2011 I think or maybe 2012, or maybe 2010. It was probably five years ago and at the time he mentioned that it could be one of the hardest boulder problems in the United States, which I believe it kind of still is, actually. Itā€™s just a really specific style of problem.

Then, a couple years passed and Carlo Traversi came by and made the second ascent of the boulder problem. Then, I just started trying it. Actually, the day that Carlo did it I was watching and that kind of inspired me to start trying the boulder problem because Carlo and I kind of have a really similar style.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, you do.

 

Jon Cardwell: He just kept telling me, ā€œYou should try it. Just get on it. You never know,ā€ and that first day was really good. I was able to do a lot of the moves. Not all of the moves but a good amount to make me think that it was possible then I just kept trying it, really, probably overall 20 days or 25 days on that one boulder problem.

 

Neely Quinn: Over more than one season?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah. I tried it that spring and then I think I came back the next fall and I got really close and then it took probably another year because I just didnā€™t try it after getting really close and not having done it. I kind of lost interest and I went back to sport climbing a lot but once I came back one winter I just had this random idea to go try it and actually, on my first day back on it, I was able to send it.

 

Neely Quinn: How did that happen? Had you been training differently or what happened?

 

Jon Cardwell: You know, it was like I spent a whole season in the Red River Gorge the season before. It was all fall, I was climbing in the Red River Gorge and after that I was kind of ready for a change so I thought that bouldering would be a nice switch, just to gain some power and not sport climb as much for a little bit. I started training.

I went back home, actually, to Albuquerque for a few weeks to see my parents and I got into this real kind of isolated mentality where I was able just to go into the gym and train a lot and get psyched for returning to Colorado and I donā€™t know. I think that training really helped and knowing that I have a project waiting was really motivating, too, so when I came back I was full of energy and I was just super psyched.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so I want to ask you about how you trained but I also want to know: whatā€™s the hardest thing you had done before The Game?

 

Jon Cardwell: Before The Game I had done numerous V14s. I guess they were all kind of around the same level. Some were long, some were shorter. I did problems like Ode to the Modern Man in Mount Evans, Aslan in Rocky Mountain National Park, and various others. Some in Switzerland but nothing really stood out as really, really difficult. They were just hard problems that maybe suited me really well so I was able to climb them.

The Game, to me, was just so much harder. It was definitely the next level.

 

Neely Quinn: Why is that? What kind of boulder is it?

 

Jon Cardwell: Well itā€™s really steep. Itā€™s a total roof climb and the holds are kind of rounded crimps and you have to use a lot of tension to stay on the wall and a lot of upper body, like compression strength. Thatā€™s kind of my style in a way so it suited me really well but it was also taking forever to climb so it made me think that it was quite hard.

 

Neely Quinn: Alright, so what kind of things did you do to train for it?

 

Jon Cardwell: Actually, I kind of developed some interesting training for it because I had a lot of talks with Carlo, like, ā€œI donā€™t understand whatā€™s going wrong,ā€ and this and that. He suggested a few things and I started doing where I would hang on the campus board and pull up really high because in the crux moves in The Game, for me, I had to be kind of locked-off to my chest, to the wall in the roof with both arms and move my right hand up to a small intermediate and bump again. In the movement of going to the intermediate, if my left arm were to let loose a little bit then I would not have enough strength to get to the next hold, if that makes any sense.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, so you had to be locked-off and stay locked-off for the problem.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah. I had to stay totally with my arm at a 90ā° angle and if it let loose at all, I would fall off, so I would train these – I would pull up and just hold it like one-arm, basically, at 90ā° on a half pad crimp or something like that.

Then, in the gym thereā€™s this machine thatā€™s kind of like a row machine, I guess. You can put weight where you – itā€™s chest pulls, I guess, or something like that. Your arms are kind of like if you were to stick your fists out in front of you and 90ā° angle and pull towards your chest, itā€™s kind of like that, you know?

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah.

 

Jon Cardwell: Thatā€™s like the exact movement that I was working for for The Game.

 

Neely Quinn: To try to stay into the wall because itā€™s so overhung.

 

Jon Cardwell: Exactly. To stay into the wall and to hold this crazy swing that you have to do. So that really helped but actually, the specific training that I did before I actually climbed the problem was not that at all. I just happened to get into this idea of doing pull-ups on crimps and different variations of it, and thatā€™s what I was doing a lot when I was back home in Albuquerque. Just doing, you know, maybe 100 pull-ups in sets of 10 on progressively smaller crimps and it just got my fingers much more strong than theyā€™ve ever been before. I think upon returning to The Game, I had just stronger hands, really. I did a lot of core work also because itā€™s so steep that my core was strong and also my finger strength.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, letā€™s go back to the 100 pull-ups, sets of 10. Do you think it was you hanging on those small crimps or do you think that the pull-ups actually helped you? Have you ever done just dead hangs on fingerboards?

 

Jon Cardwell: I havenā€™t done much dead hangs for fingerboards because, to be honest, I never really knew or know of a good system of how long and how many sets and this and that. The reason why I chose pull-ups, because generally I donā€™t really enjoy doing pull-ups. I donā€™t know if many people do, anyways, but I chose it because I wanted my hands to have some motion in them. When youā€™re in climbing itā€™s not totally static, like youā€™re not just hanging, youā€™re moving off of the hand holds that you have so thatā€™s why I just threw in pull-ups, to kind of switch it up a little bit, I guess.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s funny. So youā€™re using the campus board to do static movements and the fingerboard to do dynamic movements. [laughs]

 

Jon Cardwell: [laughs] Yeah – oh wait. These are really specific, weird workouts, I guess because I actually do sometimes use the campus board for campusing, actually. Especially if Iā€™m going to do a bouldering competition or something, but I donā€™t know. I was just going around the gym and looking at different tools that we have, I guess, and trying to be as specific as I can to that specific boulder problem.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I think itā€™s really cool. Itā€™s really innovative and I mean, you were suiting your own particular needs for sure.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I mean I really thought about it a lot and thatā€™s kind of how I structure all of my training now. I get this project and sometimes Iā€™m strong enough and I know itā€™s just a matter of time, maybe I just need to work it a lot, but other times I think, ā€˜Okay, I have to get stronger,ā€™ so Iā€™ll think of as many different ways as possible that I could get stronger specifically for a specific project or something.

 

Neely Quinn: Right, and it sounds like for a specific weakness of yours.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, like a weakness or maybe just a different way of getting one type of strength better, I guess.

 

Neely Quinn: Going back to your training, you said you were doing core work. What kind of stuff were you doing?

 

Jon Cardwell: With core itā€™s, I think, fairly basic. Iā€™ll do a lot of leg lifts on the bar. I like using a static bar, kind of, to do core workouts. Leg lifts, sometimes Iā€™ll go on the ground and Iā€™ll do v-ups or toe touches, some crunches, the ab roller Iā€™ll use quite a bit. Nothing really specific, just I need to make sure that Iā€™m consistently doing it and if Iā€™m on a kind of schedule like that then my core always seems to stay pretty strong.

 

Neely Quinn: So when you were training at home in Albuquerque, what was your schedule like?

 

Jon Cardwell: The schedule then was pretty relaxed. I knew that I didnā€™t want to overtrain so I would wake up, not be super hasty, and just go in and do a long warm-up, boulder until I was content, and then the real training would begin after that. I was really focusing on quality workouts rather than quantity.

 

Neely Quinn: So how long would you be in there?

 

Jon Cardwell: Most times not more than two hours, two and a half hours.

 

Neely Quinn: How many days a week?

 

Jon Cardwell: I would probably train around five days a week, actually.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s [laughs] what I hear from a lot of pros. Would you suggest that or recommend that to normal people who arenā€™t, I donā€™t know, as elite of a climber as you are?

 

Jon Cardwell: Five days a week of training?

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, five days a week.

 

Jon Cardwell: I guess if youā€™re training hard everyday, no. I would not suggest it. If youā€™re kind of – it depends on what youā€™re doing, you know? If thereā€™s kind of simple climbing days that are just fun and youā€™re not doing a lot of structured, hard training, I think you could kind of get away with climbing a lot of days on but not so hard each day and maybe pick your fresher days to train hard and then if youā€™re really tired the next day, just listen to your body and maybe you come in and do some easy laps on routes or something, anything.

Really, where Iā€™ve made the most gains have just been listening to my body and climbing as much as possible so sometimes your body allows you to do more and other times, if youā€™re kind of paying attention, youā€™ll just do less and a lot of those times is when youā€™ll improve more.

 

Neely Quinn: When you were climbing five days a week you werenā€™t necessarily training hard all of those five days, or were you?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I mean sometimes it would be like I would come in, warm-up, and realize that I was really tired so I would just kind of call it good because I knew that if I forced it, maybe I could get an injury or something like that.

I donā€™t know. Maybe thatā€™s because Iā€™ve hurt myself before by over-climbing so Iā€™m a little more cautious.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, itā€™s very reasonable of you.

 

Jon Cardwell: [laughs] Itā€™s hard not to get stuck and just say, ā€œI need to do another session, another session,ā€ because most people just want to keep training but, you know, itā€™s important to stop sometimes I think.

 

Neely Quinn: So youā€™re not one of those mutant people who never gets injured. Youā€™ve suffered some injuries?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, Iā€™ve suffered a few injuries.

 

Neely Quinn: What kinds of things?

 

Jon Cardwell: Iā€™ve suffered two pulley injuries. One was my A2 in my left hand in my ring finger. It was on a boulder problem here in Colorado, actually. That was just maybe not overtraining or anything, it was just a really weird hold position and just a really funky place, you know? Probably could have happened to anyone on that kind of move.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah. How long did that take you out?

 

Jon Cardwell: That took me out for awhile. That was, I think, a month and a half of absolutely no climbing and then at least two months after that kind of easing back into it and climbing a lot of routes and climbing really carefully on my finger.

After that, I probably felt it for another six months until I was totally confident and comfortable with my finger.

 

Neely Quinn: Man. Those damn finger injuries.

 

Jon Cardwell: I know. Weā€™re hanging all on our fingers pretty much all of the time so itā€™s not a surprise that it happens to most of us.

 

Neely Quinn: Other than your fingers, what else?

 

Jon Cardwell: I kind of hurt my knee before. I was topping out a boulder problem. It was actually quite an easy topout, it was just my knee was loaded really weird and it kind of made this popping sound and a shift in my knee. That, I think, was my LCL on the left side of my knee, on the outer part of my knee. Really, I think it was just because my knee was torqued in a really wierd position.

I had to take a week off or maybe even two weeks, I think. It was a while ago now and I wore a brace for a really long time and it took probably six months for me to get over it completely.

 

Neely Quinn: Wow. Anything else?

 

Jon Cardwell: No. Those are kind of the only things. Iā€™ve had the odd shoulder discomfort here and there but itā€™s never really bothered me too much. If I ever feel it I kind of back down and do a lot of stretching and Therabands and stuff like that.

 

Neely Quinn: But you donā€™t do that stuff regularly unless you feel it?

 

Jon Cardwell: You know, when I start to train harder I actually do it regularly before warming up and stuff.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you see a massage therapist or do any other therapies to stay healthy?

 

Jon Cardwell: Occasionally Iā€™ll do some/Iā€™ll get some body work done and a lot of times itā€™s been if Iā€™ve had a really, really tight muscle or something thatā€™s just causing discomfort, you know? Iā€™ll go there and kind of get work done but beyond that, I havenā€™t really done too much.

 

Neely Quinn: Sorry for the interruption here but on the topic of self-care and injuries, I actually want to take a moment and tell you about an injury prevention and recovery tool that I personally love and use all the time. Itā€™s called the Armaid.

The Armaid is sort of like a nutcracker for your arms. Itā€™s a self massage tool that actually works, so you donā€™t have to pay for a massage therapist. It uses a lever arm to make it really easy for you to put enough pressure on your forearms, your biceps, and triceps so that you can really de-pump and loosen everything back up after a training session or climbing session.

Jonathan Siegrist wrote a review for TrainingBeta on the Armaid and he said, ā€œAfter over a year of use, it has become clear to me that not only does it feel nice, but it produces results. I used and loved the Armaid when I was recovering from a wrist-related injury this past summer. I swear the Armaid and a rice bucket are what got me healthy and climbing again quickly.ā€

J-Star clearly likes the Armaid and if youā€™re intrigued, which I hope you are because this thing really works, you can go over to www.armaid.com and check out the Armaid for yourself. Theyā€™re giving you a 10% discount right now if you use the code ā€˜climbā€™ at checkout.

Okay, so thatā€™s the Armaid and now weā€™ll go back to the interview.

 

Neely Quinn: Another question I had was: do you ever/have you ever worked with a trainer or coach?

 

Jon Cardwell: I have, actually, when I was younger.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh right, when you were a kid.

 

Jon Cardwell: Right, when I was a kid.

 

Neely Quinn: As an adult, have you ever?

 

Jon Cardwell: No, not really. Iā€™ve looked for guidance or help on structuring training and stuff but Iā€™ve never regularly worked with a trainer recently.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you think that that would help you?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yes and no, I guess. I think it would for maybe something like competitions and stuff because, for me, the hardest part of competitions is the mental side of it and I think I could really benefit from having a coach kind of, essentially, plan the training for me so I donā€™t have to think about it and then help me kind of prepare for events on the mental side of things. A lot of times Iā€™ll overthink it and get stressed out and that will take away from the performance. I think a lot of coaches out there can offer a lot of guidance in that area.

 

Neely Quinn: Like what Puccioā€™s doing, or she was doing, with Sjong – Justen Sjong.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, exactly. I think heā€™s a super effective tool to have for competitors and also for rock climbing. I think it would benefit me to some extent, I guess I just havenā€™t really explored it too much. Itā€™s just hard to say. I think itā€™s just something that Iā€™ll have to try.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, yeah. Letā€™s talk a little bit about your sport climbing now. Can you tell us some of the highlights of your sport climbing?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I guess. It all started, you know – a lot of the sport climbing started in Rifle when I was really young. I kind of worked my way up of climbing these old school or older routes that were really classic and hard, like the 7PM Show and Lungfish and Zulu, these routes that we hear about all the time. Then from there I guess I bouldered for quite a few years and then I started going to Europe and thatā€™s where I really kind of got super psyched on sport climbing.

I went all over France, all over Spain, climbed at Catalunya a bunch, climbed in Austria, Italy, and those places really helped develop me as a climber. Thatā€™s where I kind of broke into the .14b, .14c, and even .14d range, all through travel and through climbing with European climbers and seeing different people climb.

I worked up to .14dā€™s and climbed quite a few of them abroad.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you have any favorites, or big moments for you?

 

Jon Cardwell: For me, a big moment was climbing this route Kinematix in Les Gorges du Loup, and itā€™s in France. It was kind of a surprise because I had never climbed on a route that hard before and I just started trying it randomly because one of my friends suggested I try it and after a few days I was able to climb it. It was kind of a big surprise and it opened my eyes to the possibility of climbing harder routes. That was a big highlight for me, definitely.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, doing a 9a in a few days is kind of a big deal.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I was totally shocked for sure and then I went on a road trip to Spain after that and I felt really good. I wasnā€™t climbing more 9aā€™s but I was definitely climbing other 5.14s faster than I had before.

 

Neely Quinn: How do you think that happened? Why did you progress like that?

 

Jon Cardwell: Like, after the fact of climbing a hard route?

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I guess it seems like you went from climbing, I donā€™t know, hard .14s and maybe .14dā€™s slower and then doing them faster.

 

Jon Cardwell: I think itā€™s kind of a mental thing. You know, whenever someoneā€™s reaching that next level itā€™s really hard to envision doing it because itā€™s kind of the unknown already. When you prove to yourself that itā€™s possible, that youā€™ve done it, you really gain a lot of confidence. Iā€™ve seen it in so many of my friends and other people and climbers, where they do something that they didnā€™t think they could do or that they knew was a huge challenge for them and after that, itā€™s like they approach climbing differently.

Thatā€™s kind of what happened to me. I just realized, ā€˜Hey, I can do this and I have a lot of confidence,ā€™ and it just kind of shows you that youā€™re strong enough and youā€™re able to approach the next project with a better mentality.

 

Neely Quinn: So you gained some confidence.

 

Jon Cardwell: Exactly.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you want to talk about your trip to France this year?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, sure.

 

Neely Quinn: What was your objective there and when did you go?

 

Jon Cardwell: I left in May with Matty Hong. We went on a two-month trip to France to climb in Ceuse. My main objective was to climb Biographie, this 9a+ that was first climbed by Chris Sharma. I had been trying it for a few seasons already, actually. I first tried it in 2009 and then I came back last year and tried it for a couple weeks then but we had really bad weather that trip so the tries were really good but at the same time, weather got in the way a little bit.

This time we had a really good window of weather and had a lot of days to try the route but I think it got really tough for me mentally. It got into my head and I started to get really close but then it started to feel harder and harder in a weird way so I donā€™t know. I think I just needed a break, really, of trying it and to come back with a fresh mind and try it again.

 

Neely Quinn: Are you planning on going back?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I am. I may go back this fall but if that doesn’t happen then certainly Iā€™ll go back next spring and try it again.

 

Neely Quinn: Have you climbed .15a? I couldnā€™t find anything online about your resume.

 

Jon Cardwell: No, not yet. Still working for it.

 

Neely Quinn: Sorry, sorry.

 

Jon Cardwell: No, itā€™s alright. Itā€™s really hard for me. Itā€™s hard for everyone, I think, to reach that next level. Iā€™ve climbed almost a dozen or I guess almost 10 9aā€™s now or a half dozen and I feel that physically Iā€™m ready to climb the next level but itā€™s just I have to realize that itā€™s possible and I just have to go there with a fresh head and kind of get it done.

 

Neely Quinn: How long were you there this trip?

 

Jon Cardwell: I was there six weeks, or a little over six weeks.

 

Neely Quinn: I always wonder about that, like, youā€™re in the middle of France, in the middle of nowhere, basically. You donā€™t really have much training things there. Did you even have a fingerboard? Were you even using one? Were you doing anything to train?

 

Jon Cardwell: No, outside of rock climbing we did no training.

 

Neely Quinn: Right. Thatā€™s what I wonder about. After six weeks do you feel like you actually did get physically weaker? Or do you feel like it was just your head?

 

Jon Cardwell: Thatā€™s kind of tricky to say. Actually, I felt like by the end I got much stronger but I started to get tired, if that makes any sense. My body was just exhausted. In Ceuse itā€™s kind of an extreme climbing area because you have to walk up this hill about 40 minutes every day and normally itā€™s in the middle of the day when itā€™s pretty hot, then you have to hike down. Itā€™s like a six-mile round trip every day and then youā€™re climbing 4, 5, 6 times during the day. You do that two days on, one day off for six or seven weeks and when your projectā€™s Biographie, youā€™re doing a lot of hard moves so I think by the end of it my body was just exhausted. I was tired and I had given my best shots. Iā€™ve gotten really close and I started to get tired so I started to feel weaker on the route. I think the most important thing that I could have done was maybe rest an entire week or something and then come back to it.

 

Neely Quinn: Was that an option for you?

 

Jon Cardwell: It was, actually, and I took one period of rest. I think I rested four or five days and we went to the Verdon Gorge and a lot of our friends were able to climb and I just kind of took it easy, climbed a couple of easy routes, and mostly rested. When I came back I actually made the best attempt I ever made on the route. I actually stuck the crux moves and was able to climb a little bit past them and then my foot slipped off and I fell off the route.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh no!

 

Jon Cardwell: [laughs] Yeah, it was kind of epic but it was super inspiring. I was really psyched after that, you know? I started trying more and more and more and maybe I got a little too psyched because I started trying it three or four times a day so, you know, after a week or two of that I was really, really tired. It was getting time to leave.

 

Neely Quinn: And then you had to go home.

 

Jon Cardwell: Then I had to go home, yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: Well, next time.

 

Jon Cardwell: Next time for sure. Iā€™m pretty confident that the next time I go to try the route I can finish it.

 

Neely Quinn: Before you go next time, how will you train for that. I know youā€™ve been – and I want to talk about your accomplishments this summer, too – but what will you do differently next time?

 

Jon Cardwell: Well, I think before I go next time Iā€™ll be climbing outside quite a bit more. I was training a lot before I went this year and actually, we had really bad weather here in Colorado and it was rainy so I couldnā€™t really climb outside too much. That forced a lot of gym time but when I arrived in Ceuse first off, I felt like I needed to get used to the rock and specifically the pockets, the style of climbing there a lot. I think if I had a little head start on that before it would help, so focusing on rock and focusing on just climbing well. Like, warm-up and climb really hard and really well.

I donā€™t know how to explain it. I guess itā€™s like, you know, just learning how to keep it together for 90 feet or 100 feet. I was getting pumped around halfway so I think if I could kind of extend that a little bit it would help.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you think that youā€™ll just try to find routes around here that sort of replicate that? Or do you think youā€™ll work more in the gym on that?

 

Jon Cardwell: You know, a combination of both. In the gym what Iā€™ll do is just kind of supplement that by doing a lot of laps or maybe bouldering circuits. Iā€™ll pick 30 or 40-move circuits and Iā€™ll do them numerous times in a row, just to build fitness, the kind of fitness that you canā€™t really train outside. Then on the rock Iā€™ll just pick routes that are hard for me, that challenge me, that are long, varied, and just pick these kind of mini-projects so I go through those motions before Iā€™m attempting the big project.

 

Neely Quinn: Right. Do you feel like youā€™re going to need to go climb somewhere on pockets in order to get used to the climbing in France again?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, either that or maybe train a little bit of pockets on a fingerboard here, but definitely, if I went to Wyoming to climb in some of those areas I hear they have a lot of pockets and stuff like that. I think it would help.

 

Neely Quinn: Have you never been to Wyoming?

 

Jon Cardwell: Iā€™ve never been to Wyoming. [laughs] Itā€™s kind of embarrassing because itā€™s so close and I hear itā€™s awesome.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s funny but youā€™ve been around the world so I guess that makes up for it.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I mean thereā€™ll definitely be a time for Wyoming. I hope this fall Iā€™ll have some time to go out there.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, for sure. I think that would be great for you. There are tiny little awful pockets up there.

 

Jon Cardwell: Exactly, but I hear itā€™s really nice climbing, too. Soā€¦

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, letā€™s talk about your summer. Iā€™ve been hearing a lot about you being a badass in Rifle. Do you want to talk about your accomplishments there and your goals?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah. Well, the main goal for me was to climb Shadowboxing, this route that Jonathan Siegrist climbed in 2011. Mostly because itā€™s one of the last harder climbs in Rifle that I have andā€¦

 

Neely Quinn: How hard is it considered? Sorry.

 

Jon Cardwell: Jonathan called it .14c or d and I guess some holds broke. I donā€™t really know what broke but maybe just a variety of little foot holds and some parts of a couple of hand holds. Nothing really significant I think but it did kind of crumble away a little bit, mostly just getting cleaned. I donā€™t know, I think itā€™s just a different style of climbing for Rifle so it feels a lot harder than a lot of the harder routes, I guess. I thought it to be quite hard.

 

Neely Quinn: Itā€™s less overhung than a lot of other stuff, right?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah. Itā€™s less overhung, itā€™s really kind of consistent climbing, and itā€™s actually really bouldery, too. Youā€™ll have a really long, pumpy section directly into a hard boulder problem then thereā€™s really no knee bars or trickery to it. You just have to climb through it and stay fresh, so thatā€™s what I really liked about it, actually.

 

Neely Quinn: So you did it?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I was able to climb it.

 

Neely Quinn: Congratulations.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah. [laughs] Thank you.

 

Neely Quinn: Go ahead, what was that?

 

Jon Cardwell: I was stoked and also Jonathan was really psyched, too. Weā€™d been chatting back and forth a whole ton about the route and heā€™s just been really anxious to see someone else climb on it, you know? I understand completely.

 

Neely Quinn: Itā€™s cool to see you guys working on the same routes. You have similar abilities but you guys have such different styles. Youā€™re sort of like the same size so Iā€™m sure you share some beta.

 

Jon Cardwell: Oh yeah. We share a ton of beta and I try to learn as much as I can from a climber like Jonathan because heā€™s such a good sport climber, or endurance climber, that I try to learn from that. Iā€™m naturally more bouldery, I guess, and I have a lot to learn still, I think, to kind of climb more efficiently.

 

Neely Quinn: I think you guys are probably a good complement to each other.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: That was your main goal there. Did it take you a while to do that?

 

Jon Cardwell: Well, I first tried it a couple years ago, just one day to check out the moves because we had heard that it broke and supposedly it was a really crucial hold. I went up the route and it didnā€™t feel that impossible, actually, so I told Jonathan. He was in the canyon and he went up the next day, I guess, or one of those days, and he went up too and was like, ā€˜It totally goes. Have fun,ā€™ you know, ā€˜Go for it.ā€™

For whatever reason I didnā€™t try it again that season then I came back, I think it was at the end of last season, and I tried it a couple days with Matty and Carlo. We went up there and just kind of sussed beta and then it started raining and it was totally soaked so that kind of ended that season. Then this spring we all tried it again, like for a day or two, and then the season ended again, or we took off to France, actually.

Those were those kind of random days and then I went on a youth climbing trip that we do. Jimmy, Reed-o (spelling?), and I would take our youth team every year to Rifle for a week and we kind of show them outdoor climbing, get them used to climbing outside, and camping and stuff. Itā€™s a really fun time with the team but weā€™re able to climb as well.

I just started trying it once or twice every day and by the end of the trip I was able to do it.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s quick!

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, it came together really quick, actually, which was really surprising. I gave three or four goes and after that I fell on the last move once. Then, I tried it again and I fell again at the top and then I was able to do it after that.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, thatā€™s awesome.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: Youā€™ve done a ton of stuff since then and before then. Didnā€™t you do Kryptonite this year?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I did Kryptonite earlier this season with Carlo and Daniel and that was an incredible experience, just being up there. It was a really early season, or it was a really dry season, I guess, early on so we were able to climb there February and March a bunch with awesome conditions. We started trying Flex Luther a little bit before it got wet and stuff but yeah, that was a really fun time.

 

Neely Quinn: And just for anybody that doesnā€™t know, Kryptoniteā€™s a .14d up at The Fortress, right? Itā€™s .14d, right?

 

Jon Cardwell: Uh-huh, yeah. Itā€™s probably the first of its grade in the United States, actually.

 

Neely Quinn: Itā€™s a Tommy route, right?

 

Jon Cardwell: Itā€™s a Tommy Caldwell route. Ultra-classic and you always kind of expect those things from Tommy. He just finds these incredible lines. Itā€™s super huge. Itā€™s an incredibly long climb, an endurance climb. Itā€™s just amazing up there.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, it must have gotten you in shape for these other things.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, totally. It totally got us in shape for the summer season.

 

Neely Quinn: So then, I heard somewhere – maybe our friend Stevie told me or something – that you were trying to onsight .14a or that was one of your goals. Is that true?

 

Jon Cardwell: Itā€™s actually been a goal of mine for quite a while now. Iā€™ve had these near-misses left and right, you can imagine. I always try to onsight something like 8b+ or 8b or 8c and for the longest time I had been failing on them but just a couple weeks ago I was able to do one in Rifle, so I finally accomplished that.

 

Neely Quinn: What was it? Roadside?

 

Jon Cardwell: Roadside Prophet.

 

Neely Quinn: Nice work! Thatā€™s incredible.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, thank you.

 

Neely Quinn: So you actually onsighted it. You didnā€™t flash it?

 

Jon Cardwell: I onsighted it, yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s awesome.

 

Jon Cardwell: I had always kind of thought about onsighting that route because Matty had told me that I should try to flash it or onsight it someday, so I had never really – if anyone was on it or anything I tried not to pay attention or anything. Just one day I walked up there with Chelsea and Andrea and I was just feeling really good and I decided to try it and it was kind of epic, actually, but I was able to pull it through.

 

Neely Quinn: Were you on it for like an hour?

 

Jon Cardwell: I was on it for a really long time. I made it through the bottom part, which seems to be the crux, and I was on this really long headwall. Itā€™s about 50 feet of .13a or b climbing, probably, and I got stuck at the last bolt. Like, god forbid, at the very, very end of the route I was just totally stuck. I had no idea what to do and I kept trying one sequence with one hand and I think I tried it twice and I knew that if I fully committed to the move I would be too pumped and I would fall off. I kind of made this last-minute decision to switch my hands and it actually worked. I made it up past the last bolt and then I had another little moment where I thought I could fall but I was able to just be lucky enough to stick these certain holds and move up to the chains.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you think this is the first of many?

 

Jon Cardwell: I think so. You know, itā€™s kind of like that thing I was mentioning before, like once you break through to a new level, once you do something that you always were working for and that was really hard for you, you kind of gain this confidence. I was able to, the next day, onsight another .14a or .13+ just in the Wicked Cave. That kind of reaffirmed that, alright, this is possible. I can do it.

 

Neely Quinn: Wow. The next day? Thatā€™s great.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, the next day.

 

Neely Quinn: Which one was that?

 

Jon Cardwell: Itā€™s called Uncertainty Principle. Itā€™s a route by Steve Hong and I had actually watched him send the route, the first ascent, quite a few years ago but when I went back on it now I was hanging the draws and I had, basically, forgot all the beta that I saw him do. I think it was 2011 or something so it was more or less a flash but it was definitely reaching the next level for me of climbing routes first try in Rifle.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah. Putting the draws up in Rifle on a – nice. Okay, so whatā€™s next? Is there anything you want to mention about your season so far in Rifle?

 

Jon Cardwell: Well, I climbed a bunch of 5.13s, kind of onsight and flash, and various ones up and down the canyon. I think itā€™s just been more my approach nowadays, just to climb routes. Iā€™m really enjoying onsight climbing so Iā€™m just trying to do them onsight and then if that doesnā€™t work out I try to do it as quickly as possible.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I heard you tried onsighting my route, Tomb Raider, my project.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah. [laughs]

 

Neely Quinn: How was that?

 

Jon Cardwell: Actually, a funny story about that: a few years ago I had redpointed Bad Girls Club, the route Bad Girls Club in the Wicked Cave. I had then, right after, was like, ā€˜Iā€™m going to try to onsight Tomb Raider.ā€™ I get on Tomb Raider and I actually make it all the way to the end and thereā€™s a dozen holds kind of ticked-up everywhere. Like, pulling the lip I think youā€™re actually kind of done. I managed to get myself kind of over the lip and I was so pumped I couldnā€™t feel my arms or anything and I think I just ripped off the biggest jug. I didnā€™t break it off the wall but I just melted off of it. I couldnā€™t hold on to the wall anymore. I donā€™t think Iā€™ve ever been so pumped in my entire life.

I was able to come back this year and kind of re-climb it but I have been watching people on it and stuff. I had a lot of beta.

 

Neely Quinn: Itā€™s a good one.

 

Jon Cardwell: Itā€™s a good one. Itā€™s hard, too, for sure. Thereā€™s a bouldery crux on it but itā€™s just Rifle climbing. I think over the years Iā€™ve climbed there so much that Iā€™ve really learned the style of the climbing and the type of rock and stuff that it just comes to you after a certain amount of time. Youā€™re able to read it quicker.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, for sure. For the first five years that I went there I was like, ā€˜I hate this place. Why do I keep coming back?ā€™ [laughs]

 

Jon Cardwell: Itā€™s so hard and itā€™s so complicated, too. It just takes time I think.

 

Neely Quinn: Okay, so while youā€™ve been climbing so much in Rifle, have you been training while youā€™re home?

 

Jon Cardwell: Actually less so, especially that week. I had a whole week out there with the kids and so I wasnā€™t home at all. The week before that I was just kind of working and setting and the week before that, actually, was when I came back from France and I took a full week off because I was just really too exhausted to climb or anything. I kind of rested and then I did one week of kind of light training, mostly bouldering just because I hadnā€™t bouldered in a few months. I wanted to build a little bit of power and then since then, now I havenā€™t really trained at all, actually.

 

Neely Quinn: Are you climbing during the week much?

 

Jon Cardwell: A little bit, yeah. Last week we were in Salt Lake City for the trade show so I got a couple gym sessions in then we did the PsicoBloc event. That kind of brings me up to today, really.

 

Neely Quinn: I didnā€™t even watch it. I donā€™t know anything about it. How did you do?

 

Jon Cardwell: I did pretty well. It was kind of complicated. There was really bad weather for the event so after a few delays during the womenā€™s finals we would have to cancel it for an hour and wait for lightning and rain to pass. They were able to finish up the womenā€™s rounds.

We started the first brackets of the menā€™s – basically how it works is there are 16 men competing so that means eight brackets, and itā€™s a head-to-head duel on an identical route over 50 feet of water. You kind of race, I guess, and whoever tops out first or whoever gets the farthest on the route advances to the next round.

The weather allowed us to get through one brackett like that and then once that brackett was finished the lightning kind of returned and the organizers decided to cancel the event at that point, or just call it finished.

 

Neely Quinn: Did you even get to climb?

 

Jon Cardwell: I did. I actually went against Matty. We went and the wall was pretty much totally soaked, like most of the holds were wet and the wall was seeping through the t-nuts from the rain and stuff and unfortunately, Matty made it a few moves up before he just totally wet-fired off the wall. Technically, I advanced to the next round but we all decided, in the male category, just to split the prize money evenly and just to go out there and give a show.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh, thatā€™s cool.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, it was real exciting and it was kind of a cool event to see everyone work together because all of those spectators that came out to watch us, you know, they really wanted to see the people climb so we did our best to get out there and do something.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s awesome. I heard it was 11 at night when you guys were still climbing. It must have been freezing.

 

Jon Cardwell: Oh yeah. It was really, really cold but these PsicoBlocs, the organizers do a really good job at making sure that weā€™re comfortable. We had heaters, we had towels, it was cold but it wasnā€™t really that bad. Anyone that was super psyched would jump out there and go for it, you know?

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, thatā€™s cool.

 

Jon Cardwell: It was a lot of fun.

 

Neely Quinn: Did you say – I missed that. Did you say that you trained for PsicoBloc?

 

Jon Cardwell: No, I didnā€™t really. It was during the week and because it was in Salt Lake, we were busy at the trade show. We really only had time to go into the gym so we went a couple days into the Momentum, Millcreek gym just to climb. I guess it was training for PsicoBloc but there was no structured training or anything. We just went in and climbed.

 

Neely Quinn: So now what? Where do you go now?

 

Jon Cardwell: So now, Iā€™m here for about a month and itā€™s going to be kind of training, bouldering during the week, and kind of power endurance training and on the weekends Iā€™m going to be heading to Rifle and kind of finishing off a few odds and ends that I have and potentially bolting some new routes.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh good. Have you done that before?

 

Jon Cardwell: Iā€™ve bolted quite a few routes, actually, but not here in Colorado.

 

Neely Quinn: Like in New Mexico or something? Or where?

 

Jon Cardwell: New Mexico a little bit. Iā€™ve bolted a couple routes in Spain before and I went on a bolting trip with Petzl to Argentina one year and we bolted a bunch of routes in a new climbing area there for the Rock Trip.

 

Neely Quinn: So youā€™re going to – what kind of odds and ends? Do you have big projects left still in Rifle?

 

Jon Cardwell: Nothing too big. No epic projects, I think, but thereā€™s a bunch of 5.13s and some .14-ā€™s that Iā€™ve never tried and I just kind of want to go out there and try to climb those routes because thereā€™s still a lot of really nice, classic routes left for me to try.

 

Neely Quinn: So youā€™re kind of an interesting one because I consider you a pro climber. Do you consider yourself a pro climber?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yes, definitely.

 

Neely Quinn: And that means that you have sponsorships and Iā€™m hoping that youā€™re getting paid, and we donā€™t have to go into that, but you also work. It sounds like quite a bit.

 

Jon Cardwell: I kind of split my time. Movementā€™s been really good to me in the fact that they allow me to take a lot of free time to go out and climb when I have responsibilities with my sponsors and likewise, my sponsors have been really supportive and help power me to do these big trips all over the world and stuff.

Iā€™ve kind of found a balance. I like home base and unfortunately, though, home base costs money. If you want to rent out a place and have a house and a nice, comfortable place to come home to itā€™s not like living on the road. Work does help for that, definitely, but Iā€™ve actually, in the last few years, having a home base and having a place to train has been really good for me because when I do get that time to travel and go on a climbing trip Iā€™m more focused. I realize that I only have a month, I donā€™t have eight months or something like that so I stay more focused this way.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh – probably more psyched than if you were always on the road.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, totally.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s interesting. Do you feel like/are your aspirations to always work and be sponsored or would you like to just be able to do this full time?

 

Jon Cardwell: You know, I like working. Eventually I think I would like to be more integrated into the outdoor industry. Working, for me, kind of keeps me focused and humbled a little bit, I guess, because I remember when I would travel full time climbing, when it was every single day, I would almost lose motivation a little bit, if that makes sense. Just because it was everything that I did and now that Iā€™m able to kind of slow down and, especially, coach kids and do some route setting – I really like route setting, I really like coaching – it kind of takes my mind off climbing all the time which is helpful.

 

Neely Quinn: So you donā€™t get so obsessed and maybe stressed about it?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, exactly. I mean a balance like I have now is something that I would like to maintain for some years.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s really cool. You had said – Iā€™m trying to think of, like, how you would be as a coach for these kids. Why do you like it so much and what kind of a coach are you? What kind of things can you teach them as such a strong climber?

 

Jon Cardwell: You know, I think what our program kind of focuses on is not only teaching these kids how to climb well and to become stronger climbers or competitors, but to really appreciate climbing and to kind of see the vast world of climbing that we see. Thatā€™s why we do a lot of outdoor trips and stuff like that, to kind of show them all aspects of climbing.

Jimmy, you know, he likes to introduce them to, ā€˜Hey, thereā€™s such a thing as trad climbing.ā€™ I think a lot of kids, when you start climbing you just think of the comps and bouldering and sport climbing and stuff like that but I think itā€™s important to kind of teach them as young adults about every part of our sport. Weā€™ve had a lot of kids be really interested in hiking mountains. One kid has done all the 14ers in the state, which is pretty cool. Other kids really like trad climbing, actually, and they ask us all the time to take them out trad climbing and we have our typical kids, too, that are psyched on bouldering and sport climbing and they like to compete.

I just like kind of giving back and kind of sharing all my experiences, translating it back to them in a way that either they could be inspired or motivated or they could just go from there and they can grow. Weā€™ve seen them grow so much from what weā€™ve taught them. Itā€™s cool to see.

 

Neely Quinn: That must be gratifying.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, it is, and we try to make sure that theyā€™re safe and that they – because theyā€™re going to grow up and be able to go on climbing trips on their own, we want to make sure that we did everything we could to make sure that theyā€™re safe whenever they go out there and they belay each other or set up anchors or clean anchors or spot each other on boulder problems, and stuff like that.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s a pretty big responsibility, actually.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah.

 

Neely Quinn: You had said that you had a fear of heights when you were a kid. Iā€™m sure that you encounter that with your kids. How did you get over that and how do you help them get over it?

 

Jon Cardwell: How I got over it was – Iā€™m trying to remember. I vaguely remember that one day practice was with ropes so everyone had to be on ropes, whether it was toprope or lead climbing. I was really not happy about that. I was just like, ā€˜Why can we not boulder?ā€™ and the coaches were like, ā€˜Listen: what you could do is try to do a really easy climb on toprope and just get that kind of exposure.ā€™

I think I did it one or two practices, where I would just do easier climbs on top ropes and just get up 25 feet, or whatever our gym was, and just get up there and kind of after that, I got much more comfortable given that once we went to a bigger gym I had to get used to that height, and the next height, and the next height. Once I got old enough and I started going outside I just got over that fear.

Thatā€™s kind of what we do with our kids now. We donā€™t want to force them to do anything that makes them really uncomfortable or insecure so if they just canā€™t handle really big exposure we try to start them out kind of easier and on more comfortable terrain and just kind of work up from there.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, that sounds reasonable. That sounds like what Arno Ilgner told me he does with his people, too.

 

Jon Cardwell: Start easy, you start short, and then you work your way up. I think, with our kids, when theyā€™re able to make the call like, ā€˜Okay, Iā€™m ready to do the steep lead climb,ā€™ then they have more confidence. You know what I mean? Rather than us putting them on the spot completely and saying, ā€œYou have to do this. You can do it,ā€ or whatever, you know? Then I think they get really nervous and theyā€™re not as comfortable so itā€™s a long process with some kids but others, they get it really quick.

 

Neely Quinn: I wanted to ask you a few questions about diet because I donā€™t want to take too much of your time, but can you just describe if diet plays a big role in your climbing performance and your thoughts on it?

 

Jon Cardwell: I would say kind of yes and no a little bit. It definitely affects the way I climb. I think the only ā€˜noā€™ factor that I have is that I simply donā€™t know that much about diet, to be honest. I just try to eat healthy. A lot of vegetables, fruits when I can, that kind of stuff – yogurt, and I just try to have a balanced diet I guess and not eat out too much and not eat fast food or anything like that. I just try to, I donā€™t know, eat what makes my body feel good, really.

 

Neely Quinn: So you do pay attention a little bit to what makes you feel good?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, definitely. Salads are super important for me. I eat meat maybe only once a week or twice a week sometimes but we – I donā€™t know. I eat a lot of eggs, a lot of salad and stuff like that. Fruits and vegetables are key.

 

Neely Quinn: Wow. It sounds like Iā€™m talking to Adam Ondra again.

 

Jon Cardwell: I donā€™t know. I eat, occasionally, some pasta and rice but itā€™s not very often. Itā€™s maybe once or twice a week, mainly when Iā€™m camping. Itā€™s fast, easy food, you know? I never try to eat bad food, I guess.

 

Neely Quinn: So you eat a ton of vegetables. Do you mean that you donā€™t eat very many grains at all or just rice and pasta? Would you eat a sandwich on a regular basis?

 

Jon Cardwell: Not on a regular basis but I do eat a sandwich every once in awhile, on the weekend or something like that. If weā€™re traveling and you just make a sandwich, but I make wraps a lot, I guess, with tortillas and stuff, but yeah, we eat bread/toast every once in awhile with the salad or something.

 

Neely Quinn: How much does this have to do with maintaining or losing weight? What are your thoughts on that?

 

Jon Cardwell: I think with maintaining or losing weight, the more I train the more fuel I need, actually, so the harder I train I generally eat a little more but Iā€™m losing weight generally when I train harder. Especially when Iā€™m climbing routes, so I donā€™t really relate diet to how my weight fluctuates. I think it has more to do with how much Iā€™m running or how much Iā€™m out in the mountains or how much Iā€™m climbing, really.

 

Neely Quinn: Oh, do you run as part of your regular routine?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yes, I do.

 

Neely Quinn: I didnā€™t ask that. I didnā€™t know that. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

 

Jon Cardwell: Well, running is generally for recovery or just simple cardio. Iā€™m not running too long, around half an hour usually, two or three miles. Sometimes Iā€™ll do hikes. Just outside of here in Boulder we have Mount Sanitas. Before I went to Ceuse I was doing it quite often because I knew that I had a hike there. I would do the hike a bunch or I just kind of run after climbing, generally, just to get the blood moving and flowing. Iā€™ve found that itā€™s really good for my cardiovascular system and just breathing well.

 

Neely Quinn: So you have taken time off of running and noticed a difference with it?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, I definitely feel less fit, I guess, when I run less. With running itā€™s really a big recovery tool for me, actually, so I notice that if I run after a workout or after a training session that I will generally feel a little bit better the next day or less sore, I guess. I donā€™t really know the science behind that but it definitely helps at times.

 

Neely Quinn: Maybe itā€™s circulating blood everywhere.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, and Iā€™m not running hardcore. Iā€™m just kind of jogging or doing a lighter run, I guess.

 

Neely Quinn: Cool. Well, I think those are all the questions I have for you.

 

Jon Cardwell: Cool. Awesome.

 

Neely Quinn: Do you have any last words for people or anything that you want people to know about you?

 

Jon Cardwell: Not so much. I just know that when it comes to training one of the most important things that Iā€™ve learned is to really listen to your body. Iā€™ve seen so many people kind of force training sessions in when theyā€™re not feeling it and thatā€™s, a lot of the times, when you can get hurt or kind of just push the training too far to where you start to feel exhausted. Itā€™s just a huge thing.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, just overtraining. Coming from a person who has climbed as hard as you I think thatā€™s really important information. I think people do train – I mean, we get emails all the time from people who are clearly overtraining. Itā€™s hard to listen to your body. I mean, do you think itā€™s just listening to how tired you are? Or what kinds of things do you listen for?

 

Jon Cardwell: I think generally what people will do is theyā€™ll just start training really hard and they wonā€™t see the results immediately so theyā€™ll continue to train harder and then they donā€™t realize that theyā€™re actually kind of hurting themselves. In a way theyā€™re making themselves more exhausted, more exhausted, and more exhausted and it can be a really frustrating cycle. Rest is key and very important so I think itā€™s just youā€™ve got to pay attention. Itā€™s hard to kind of see those signs, you know?

You get stubborn and youā€™re like, ā€˜I should be climbing better right now so I need to train harder,ā€™ but maybe itā€™s actually the opposite. Maybe you should rest a little bit and recover and then approach your training more smart afterwards.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah, cool. Where can people find you online?

 

Jon Cardwell: You can find me on Facebook. I have an Instagram page which seems to be pretty popular. I post a lot of updates on kind of where Iā€™m at and what Iā€™m doing. Generally, people can find me there.

 

Neely Quinn: You donā€™t have a website of your own, right?

 

Jon Cardwell: No, not right now.

 

Neely Quinn: Who are your sponsors? Do you want to give a shout-out?

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah. I work with Adidas Outdoor. They make awesome clothing, running shoes, hiking shoes, theyā€™re just/theyā€™ve been a really cool group of people to work with the last few years. Petzl keeps me safe and has a lot of awesome climbing gear. Five Ten for climbing shoes.

 

Neely Quinn: Thatā€™s great. Iā€™m happy for you that you have all those guys.

 

Jon Cardwell: Yeah, theyā€™re pretty awesome. Theyā€™ve been with me for a while now and I work with excellent people and theyā€™re really happy to see me doing what Iā€™m doing so itā€™s just been a really great relationship. A good few years for sure.

 

Neely Quinn: Alright, well I wish you luck in the rest of your season and if you go to France.

 

Jon Cardwell: Cool, thank you.

 

Neely Quinn: Yeah. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.

 

Jon Cardwell: Alright. Thank you.

 

Neely Quinn: Alright, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Jon Cardwell. I know I did. I love hearing about peopleā€™s innovative ways of training specifically for routes and boulders and heā€™s just a really humble guy. Itā€™s cool to see that from such a strong climber.

Coming up I have an interview with Ben Moon, the English Ben Moon. Did you guys know that there are two Ben Moons? There are two Ben Moons. One that did the video about Dean Potterā€™s dog and one that lives in England, who we know for the Moon Board and everything.

Iā€™m doing an interview with the English Ben Moon and then I have an interview with Beth Rodden coming up. It was supposed to be last week but we had to reschedule.

I also have an interview coming up with Nate Drolet. Nate – I had asked a while back for submissions, basically, from everyday climbers, not sponsored climbers, who train and have seen gains from their training. I want to interview people like you and me, who are not pros, and see what really works for people so Iā€™m interviewing Nate. Heā€™s a super strong boulderer and so thatā€™s coming up.

Besides that we always have training programs on the site for you. We try to make as many resources as possible. Weā€™re always trying to improve the site. Thatā€™s what Sethā€™s working on right now, actually, improving the subscription programs that we have. We have some exciting stuff coming out for you but in the meantime, definitely check out our bouldering program, our route program, you know our power program, our endurance program, our nutrition guide, and Steve Bechtelā€™s strength guide as well as Jared Vagyā€™s injury prevention guide.

All of those things can help you climb stronger and hopefully these podcasts help you do that, too. If you want to do a review of this podcast I would love that, whether itā€™s positive or negative. I would of course prefer positive but you can find us on iTunes and I will talk to you guys next week. I thank you very much for listening and for your attention and your kind emails about the podcast. I hope you have a great weekend. Alright, talk to you later.

 

[music]

 

2 Comments

  1. Paul May August 17, 2015 at 9:32 am - Reply

    Hi Neely,

    I really enjoyed listening to Jon C’s interview. He’s a home town hero and we love to here what he’s up to. Great questions! A lot to think about. Professionally, however, I felt a little sting when your add promotes a specific tool instead of paying a massage therapist. As a climber of almost 25 years and a LMT for 14 years I see the benefits of massage and reaching your climbing goals. There are times when bodywork would be helpful, and constantly working it yourself is counterproductive. But more to the point; I do not disparage another healthworker’s line of work. It’s not professional.
    Ok that’s out of my system. I really do think you’re an excellent interviewer and I look forward to hearing from punters like me.
    Keep up the good work.
    Yours in climbing,
    Paul

    • Neely Quinn August 17, 2015 at 3:40 pm - Reply

      Hey Paul – Sorry for the sting! I know what you mean, but a lot of people just can’t afford to see massage therapists. I personally see one all the time if that makes you feel any better šŸ˜‰ I didn’t mean to disparage anyone at all – sorry if it came across that way. I’ve used massage therapists for 15 years with lots of success. Best wishes to you!

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