Transcription

00:00:01.56
Neely Quinn
Hey Matt, welcome back to the show.

00:00:04.11
Matt
Hey, Neely, thanks for having me again. Excited to be here.

00:00:06.90
Neely Quinn
Yeah. um So we’re going to talk about board climbing today, but before we get there, what’s been going on with you and your climbing?

00:00:17.43
Matt
i Yeah, I’ve kind of been in a good spot. I have been sort of in focusing more on bouldering basically since the end of the fall root season. I had a fun trip to Waco.

00:00:28.54
Matt
Went really well. And now I’m kind of settled into, well, as much winter as we’re actually having this year, uh, in Wyoming, which means some more outdoor bouldering and quite a bit of, uh, you know, on topic for today, board climbing.

00:00:44.50
Neely Quinn
Nice. Yeah. So your trip to Waco went well?

00:00:48.73
Matt
Yeah, it went really well, uh, Did the main boulder I wanted to do while was there. Did some other ones. Had a really good time with good friends. And just I’m just generally feeling kind of better than I felt in my climbing in a while.

00:01:04.80
Matt
So pretty happy about that.

00:01:06.65
Neely Quinn
Yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah, because the last couple trips to Waco, you’ve gotten injured, right?

00:01:12.04
Matt
I didn’t get injured last year. That was like the first one. I had two years in a row where I got hurt. Then last year i didn’t get hurt.

00:01:17.57
Neely Quinn
Okay. okay

00:01:19.45
Matt
And I climbed pretty well. like But I just, in general, both in my bouldering and my root climbing, the last couple of years I’ve kind of felt like I’ve, like I know that I’m,

00:01:31.45
Matt
getting stronger, getting better. Like, or like I can point to those things, but it hasn’t really been producing results. And there’s just been, i don’t know. I’ve kind of felt like I’ve missed been missing that like extra little bit to see things over the line.

00:01:46.14
Matt
Uh, and yeah, and I’ve just, I’ve been able to execute and feel strong and feel good. And that’s great. Obviously it’s like what everyone wants and they’re climbing. So when it’s there, I try to enjoy it.

00:01:58.81
Neely Quinn
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you’re saying that you haven’t felt like you’ve been able to get yourself over some sort of point that you wanted to be at, but now you did.

00:02:10.23
Matt
Yeah, basically. i mean, the last year of my climbing, like prior to this focus on bouldering, it was basically like the, on paper, one of the least productive of my, you know, the 20 years I’ve been climbing basically. ah And like, especially in my route climbing, which, you know, is yeah but we’ll, we’ll see how that goes when I transition back to it, but especially when climbing, like, I just didn’t feel like I could execute. Like I felt like there were, there were routes were there for the taking and I just,

00:02:35.90
Matt
I would get really, really close and then I’d stay really close and I still wouldn’t do them.

00:02:41.18
Neely Quinn
Yeah. But you executed in Hueco and did a V12.

00:02:46.16
Matt
Yep, into the V12 was there, called Youngblood. um which was great. And I did some other double-digit problems and some kind of like V8, V9 classics that I’d skipped over over the years. But like, yeah honestly, more than even, like was psyched to climb V12 again. It had been a couple of years.

00:03:04.47
Matt
But even more than like any particular send, one of the things I was happiest with was i I felt like I would kind of like work through my process, you know, do all the moves, refine the beta, do some links. And I’d be like, okay, I’m like ready to send.

00:03:20.79
Matt
And it wasn’t always that I’d like send on my first, you know, go from the bottom kind of thing. But I… The entire time I was in Waco, I sent once I like kind of broke through the first time, like I didn’t like fall near the end or like find another crux. I’d sort of be like falling in a section be like, okay, I gotta try really hard to get through this.

00:03:43.48
Matt
And then I would. and I’d send and then I go on to the next one yeah which is just like really nice uh yeah exactly um and I don’t know you know that uh I don’t think that’s like gonna last forever in my climbing it’s some new thing that you know I’ll never fall at the end of something again but uh I was really happy with sort of like how i was climbing from an execution perspective and I’m trying to kind of like

00:03:45.75
Neely Quinn
Nice. but That’s like what everyone wants.

00:04:09.53
Matt
keep that going as much as I can. And just, it’s something I really kind of like value and and more than like, oh, I sent a grade or anything like that. I know I’m climbing well when I am doing that.

00:04:22.14
Matt
And I, that’s what I want to be doing.

00:04:22.61
Neely Quinn
Mm hmm.

00:04:23.73
Matt
So it’s is’ a good measure for me to like look at.

00:04:24.31
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:04:27.48
Neely Quinn
Nice. I mean, it seems like having some time without being injured might have, yeah you know, contributed to that.

00:04:36.41
Matt
Yeah.

00:04:37.44
Neely Quinn
Is that do you think what it is? Or did you start doing something different in your training?

00:04:42.39
Matt
Um,

00:04:45.97
Matt
it’s certainly a component of it. I don’t think that, uh, I was not like, it’s been a while since I was like acutely injured, but I think that some of the injuries that I had and the extent that they lasted had some kind of like, had some pretty big downstream like impacts. Like I couldn’t train in certain ways for a while.

00:05:07.89
Matt
Uh, and I think I basically got like quite a bit weaker. from a strength and power perspective than I’d been in a while. Um, and so even though I was like client, you know, thinking I was like getting stronger, I just don’t think it was, uh, and like the, the strength and power levels had really dropped off for me.

00:05:14.68
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:05:26.71
Matt
And I, that that’s, I think a big reason why I, my recombing didn’t go well was I was just sort of like needed a bit more snap and a bit more strength to give me some more margin.

00:05:37.36
Matt
Um, And I think, you know the specifically the route I was i was climbing on last a lot last year, out of Wolf Point, I have a good amount of margin on the moves, for multiple seasons now on it.

00:05:37.46
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:05:52.94
Matt
like I can do every move on it 100% of the time in isolation. like There’s no, ah and even like big links on it pretty much 100% of the time. but And so it’s easy to it was easy to like not see that I had sort of dropped in that strength and power way, but, uh, cause it wasn’t like I wasn’t doing moves I could do previously, but I think I had just kind of like lost that top end a little bit.

00:06:20.05
Matt
Um, and so I think it just by being able to be healthy for a while, be consistent with, uh, with my training and get back to like,

00:06:20.53
Neely Quinn
Yeah, totally.

00:06:30.20
Matt
actually trying really hard in my training, like on a board, fingery climbing, things like that. um i That’s like a big part of, I think why I’m feeling quite a bit better.

00:06:41.11
Neely Quinn
yeah totally Yeah, that all makes sense. And it’s a really good segue to this topic that we’re going to talk about today because we’re going to talk about board climbing as a training tool.

00:06:54.14
Neely Quinn
And like you said, you you were able to train on a board and get that top end of strength and power back. And I think that that’s still something that people don’t quite understand about like even using a board for root training is that like the stronger you are the easier moves feel and therefore the less energy you’re outputting and therefore your endurance can in ways like if you’re also training your endurance can improve.

00:07:25.88
Neely Quinn
Right.

00:07:26.78
Matt
Yeah, totally. and And I mean, that’s exactly what I was kind of getting at there. And i think the way i I kind of like to think about it is this idea of like having margin, right? like So like the crux on the route I was trying is probably like,

00:07:41.46
Matt
v7 ish like you get a kind of you do some sustained climbing you get a crappy rest then you do like a v6 straight into a v7 with no rest and like i don’t know i’ve climbed a lot of v7 boulders my life uh i can pretty much always do like climb v7 um but to be able to climb v7 like i’m never going to get there with no fatigue like it’s a pumpy route right So the good the question isn’t, do I have enough strength and power to climb V7?

00:08:11.80
Matt
The question is, do i have enough strength and power to have enough margin on that V7 that I can do it when I’m carrying some fatigue?

00:08:17.27
Neely Quinn
Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Okay.

00:08:21.98
Matt
And then obviously the fitness component, et cetera, part of that.

00:08:22.61
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:08:25.54
Matt
But and you’re sort of you know they both contribute and are important.

00:08:25.98
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:08:29.94
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And we’re going to, you made this wonderful outline for this talk. So we’re going to talk about all of that because I asked if you would do ah like talk about a topic on the podcast about training specific that you’ve been talking a lot about. And you said that you get a lot of questions about board climbing. So why don’t you just tell us like, why did you want to talk about this topic and what kind of questions do you get from people?

00:08:57.62
Matt
Yeah. Um, I mean, I wanted to talk about it cause I think it’s just a really prevalent thing in, in the climbing training space at this point. Um, you know, if we compare back, I’ve been climbing 20 years.

00:09:10.97
Matt
Um, there weren’t boards everywhere when I started, right? Like you would go to the climbing gym and there were set boulders and there were roots or whatever. And, you know, maybe there are some boards. that It wasn’t like they weren’t heard of, but there certainly weren’t ah a plethora of, like, LED boards.

00:09:27.93
Matt
And it wasn’t the main way that people, at least in the U.S., were training. And I think that they’re really common now.

00:09:38.52
Matt
And so, and people they you know, they’re literally light up. So they grab people’s attention. And so, yeah, i just it’s… pretty rare that I talk to anyone at this point, um you know, in my coaching who maybe they, not everyone always climbs on a board, but everyone, is pretty much everyone has access to some kind of board and is, it and, or is it interested in using it.

00:10:04.51
Matt
So that was the main reason I wanted to talk about it.

00:10:04.58
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:10:06.90
Matt
And um I think that, you know, the, so yeah. I think that’s the yeah that’s the gist of it. is I just think that they’re they’re really common and a they’re really fun and and they can be really valuable, but it’s on us to sort of use them correctly.

00:10:29.40
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And what are the most common questions that you get from people about them?

00:10:37.50
Matt
ah how to use them, which ones to use, ah you know how much they should be using them, if they should be using them, um which one is the best.

00:10:49.14
Matt
ah Yeah, kind of all those.

00:10:52.79
Neely Quinn
Okay. you had this You have something really funny written down in your outline. um A question that you get a lot is which board is best and how, Matt, do you answer that question?

00:11:06.78
Matt
Yeah. So yeah, we joked about this already. um This question is, is really funny to me. And I get it a lot. I think it’s worth saying both in my coaching and just in my like personal life as a climber, right? Like I also have a lot of friends who are climbers who are very motivated climbers. And this is, it’s always a discussion point.

00:11:27.22
Matt
Like, oh, well which board is the best board? Like, which board should I be climbing on? And it basically, I think this question is completely ridiculous. I don’t think it makes any sense. um And so the way I answer it is in two ways. The first is to say that obviously the best board is to have a fully adjustable kilter board next to two fully adjustable TV twos. You’re going to want both the mirror layout, the spray layout. You’re going to want one of each moon board. You know, you got to have the 2016. You probably want the 2024. People don’t really like the 2017 setup, but you know, whichever one was after that, I think it’s 2019. Toss that in.

00:12:05.24
Matt
You should definitely have a good spray wall too. um I don’t know. I haven’t actually climbed on one, but I think the decoy board looks all right. So chuck one of those in there. Maybe you can have a kilter home wall.

00:12:15.57
Neely Quinn
Grasshopper.

00:12:16.22
Matt
Yeah, exactly. Like, so, and that would be amazing, right?

00:12:17.52
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:12:20.74
Matt
Like that sounds like a great facility. Like i will happily pay my, monthly membership, but ah that’s like several hundred thousand dollars worth of boards. um So it’s certainly probably not what you’re going to build in your garage.

00:12:34.81
Matt
um And frankly, your climbing gym probably isn’t gonna build it either ah because of the cost. So yeah, they basically they all have value.

00:12:45.34
Matt
And so it’s like, and they shine in different ways. And so it’s not that we can’t talk about which board is maybe best for you and what you’re trying to train. But I do think it’s silly to ask the question of, well, generally, which one is best.

00:13:01.59
Matt
And the analogy I always use to kind of like highlight that in the second way I answer this question is like, would you ask a carpenter, which tool is their best tool?

00:13:10.04
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:13:10.39
Matt
Like they’d look at you like you had seven heads, like to be like, their, their obvious next question would be for what?

00:13:10.68
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:13:17.85
Matt
Like no tool is best tools are good for the purpose they’re designed for.

00:13:17.88
Neely Quinn
Right. Yeah.

00:13:22.54
Matt
So if we accept that boards are sort of a training tool, then yeah, what what are we trying to do?

00:13:28.15
Neely Quinn
Yeah. I think, yeah.

00:13:29.38
Matt
yeah like you’re missing the second part of the question.

00:13:32.25
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I think that that part of the answer was really hit home for me because Seth is like obsessed with tools and has a garage full of tools that all do very different things.

00:13:44.15
Neely Quinn
And yeah, you you couldn’t ask him what the best tool was.

00:13:47.54
Matt
Yeah, it just doesn’t make any sense.

00:13:47.99
Neely Quinn
um So, yeah.

00:13:48.90
Matt
like Yeah, it’s like, Sure. You can, you, you might even have a favorite, but it’s like still, you know, you, you would never be like, well, I just, I love using my jigsaw, but you know, I need to pound this nail in. So I’ll, but I’m just going to use it anyway.

00:14:06.26
Matt
Like, yeah know, like it just works.

00:14:06.42
Neely Quinn
Right. Yeah.

00:14:08.42
Matt
So like, why would you do that?

00:14:08.92
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:14:10.20
Matt
Um, but yeah, so, um,

00:14:12.50
Neely Quinn
So how do you see this conversation going? Like, what are people going to get out of this?

00:14:18.71
Matt
Um, well, I think what I really hope is that we kind of like talk about the use of boards, both ah on a sort of general level, and then maybe some specifics that can be applied to using on really any board.

00:14:35.06
Matt
Um, and, but I want to kind of make sure people understand the why behind what I’m saying, because I think that, uh,

00:14:46.17
Matt
the you can what if these scenarios to death like and as i said all the boards have value so you can be like well what if i only have access to this or i only have access to that and it’s like yeah we once we put it in any any specific person’s real world scenario like it you know and you can sort of bend what I’m going to say, the specifics of the points I’m going to make to any situation. But I think what’s important that people try to take away from it is the the principles or the so logic behind the the concepts, more generally speaking.

00:15:25.82
Neely Quinn
Okay. And before we get into all of this, i have some basic questions about who should be using boards.

00:15:32.74
Matt
Yeah.

00:15:35.89
Neely Quinn
Like I’ve talked to other climbers about this. um Like when I had Ravioli biceps, I asked him like, who do you think should be climbing on boards? Because I see people who I don’t think necessarily should be climbing on boards yet.

00:15:53.69
Neely Quinn
trying because they hear that it’s like all their age and it’s what you have to do to get stronger, but they’re just not even strong enough to do even single moves on most of the boards. And so who do you think, I’ll ask it as this, how who do you think should not use boards?

00:16:12.95
Matt
I mean, I think anyone can use boards. It’s a question of the application. And so, and which one you’re, or which ones you’re trying to use. So some of the boards, like the moon board, for example, has a pretty high difficulty buy-in.

00:16:29.64
Matt
It’s been a minute since I climbed on moon board, but like the setup I’ve climbed on the most is 2016. I think the easiest problems would be four.

00:16:37.37
Neely Quinn
Yeah, they are.

00:16:37.98
Matt
Yeah. So like, yeah, if you can’t climb V4, then…

00:16:43.77
Neely Quinn
Which is not V4 on set boulders.

00:16:46.33
Matt
Right, exactly.

00:16:46.61
Neely Quinn
It’s V4 moonboard, which is like really hard.

00:16:48.17
Matt
V4, which can be really hard. Then you’re sort of…

00:16:50.98
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:16:54.52
Matt
Yeah, you’re behind the ball bit, right? Like that that board is going to be hard for you to use. But again, if we think of them as just a tool, that doesn’t mean that there’s no utility in climbing on a moon board.

00:17:07.64
Matt
You could use it for other things like doing sort of static ladders to get used to more fingery holds or… um So ah the question of who should use a board is ah is or who shouldn’t use a board really comes down to Well, are we talking about just who should, you know, have a fun bouldering session with friends on that board or who should use it sort of more deliberately in their training or how should they use it more deliberately in training? And so I’d break that down as to like, well, if you can, if you can accomplish the goal of your training session. So if that’s to like work on hard projects and send them, um, you know, to like have a difficulty focused,

00:17:52.56
Matt
bouldering session and the boulders set on that board, the holds on that board that you can do them, right? Like, or at least work towards doing them and do them with some amount of regularity, then great.

00:18:04.63
Matt
Like you’re bought in. And luckily lot of the boards, like, you know, the, some of the kilter board or, you know, i know the so ill board is designed even more to be sort of beginner friendly.

00:18:15.60
Matt
Like there are boards that have, you know, grades well below V4 moon board kind of thing. So, you know, you you just are going to have to, like, figure out whether or not this board works for you.

00:18:22.19
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:18:30.30
Matt
um And if you, like, only had a moon board and are looking to kind of, like, bridge the gap towards that, then, yeah, you know, it might be a kind of thing, like, not using the holds or using the problems in the nap and lighting them up as much as, okay, yeah, I’m just doing some laddering on it.

00:18:49.33
Matt
And that that probably isn’t going to be an entire session, but it’s something you could work into your training see as like sort of on the wall kind of finger training to to help you eventually work up towards being able to use that board more effectively.

00:19:03.70
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, there is a giant difference between, for instance, using the kilter board on BERT and doing anything on the board.

00:19:12.29
Matt
Right.

00:19:14.06
Neely Quinn
So it makes sense. Anybody can. i yeah, I guess I was just curious if there are any cut and dry rules, but I don’t think there are.

00:19:22.46
Matt
I guess you know the only other one I’d add there is that um it again really depends on how exclusively you’re going to be using a board.

00:19:22.76
Neely Quinn
doesn’t sound like

00:19:32.61
Matt
So I think, so I’ll use myself as an example here. um In part due to just circumstance circumstances, like we don’t have a climbing gym here in Lander, right?

00:19:44.22
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:19:45.57
Matt
So like I don’t climb on set boulders.

00:19:48.57
Neely Quinn
Which is kind of crazy, honestly.

00:19:48.71
Matt
I climb,

00:19:50.21
Neely Quinn
It’s like everybody who lives there is a climber at this point.

00:19:53.24
Matt
Yeah, man, everyone has ah some sort of board in their garage now.

00:19:55.96
Neely Quinn
ah There’s like 4,000 boards there.

00:19:56.70
Matt
Yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, exactly.

00:19:59.84
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:20:00.31
Matt
So, um like, literally, it’s kind of insane.

00:20:01.21
Neely Quinn
Yeah,

00:20:03.98
Matt
Like, the first question, anyway it’s it’s kind of funny.

00:20:04.34
Neely Quinn
yeah that’s funny.

00:20:06.92
Matt
It’s like, if you tell somebody you’re buying a house in town, they’re like, oh, what board are you going to put in?

00:20:10.97
Neely Quinn
ah

00:20:11.56
Matt
They’re like, i don’t know. i was i was going to work on like furnishing my house first, but as much as I make that joke, here’s now a board in my house. So, ah but so yeah, I don’t climb on set polars, but because I don’t have access to them.

00:20:20.16
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:20:26.78
Matt
So I have access to a bunch of different boards, but I, I think that if you’re a newer climber, that’s going to be, that would be a more limiting situation because you know Not all climbing takes place on a clean angle sheets of plywood.

00:20:44.68
Matt
There are angle changes, there are rats, there are you know slabs. there are so I think set boulders going to give you a better diversity of movement. and we’ll And we’ll, I think we’ll get into in a second, like why that, that is.

00:20:53.72
Neely Quinn
Right.

00:20:57.43
Matt
um

00:20:57.88
Neely Quinn
Okay.

00:20:58.33
Matt
But, but yeah, so like, i think if you’re a newer climber, it’s like, and you feel strong enough to, you know, and you can work towards incorporating some board climbing, like we talked about, but I wouldn’t jump to making it your whole climbing, indoor climbing diet, because it’s just going to reduce the complexity of movement you’re kind of exposed to.

00:21:22.20
Neely Quinn
Great.

00:21:22.20
Matt
Whereas if you, you know, I don’t feel like that’s a really a big limiting factor in my climbing training for two reasons. One, I have a, like I’ve been climbing for a really long time and two, while we don’t have a climbing gym, we have a lot of really good outdoor climbing access for like most of the year.

00:21:39.03
Matt
So it’s, you know, it’s not just, Oh, I, I don’t go six months where I like only climb on a board. you know If anything, I’m like often forcing myself to climb inside more when i’m in a training phase because I know I need to, but I i get exposed to all those other things regularly outside.

00:21:56.18
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:59.49
Neely Quinn
OK, so where do we go from here?

00:22:02.17
Matt
um I think if I want to kind of talk about the training value of boards, I think, and like the why of it. Um, because while I find boards really fun, uh, and when I walk into, even if I’m traveling, like if I walk into some awesome gym, um, around the country, I still find myself gravitating towards the boards.

00:22:28.95
Matt
Um, cause I just, I really enjoy it, but I think that’s not true of everybody. And so I think it’s, and I’ve coached people where it’s a, you know, I’m like, Hey, I think some board climbing would really help you, but you know are you okay making that commitment? And they’re sort of like, yeah, but what about, I like the set bowl, there’s more.

00:22:48.09
Matt
And so I think it’s a you know just saying, there we shouldn’t just assume that everyone’s just like, oh, the boards are the greatest, I wanna climb on them. We should make case for why.

00:22:58.84
Matt
And so I think that the main reason boards are valuable Training tools is two things. One is it gives us access to a lot of boulders and an unreal access to intensity.

00:23:12.18
Matt
And so what I mean by that is if you if you think back to when you started climbing in whatever climbing gym you’re in, for me, it was like in New Jersey, we there would one section of the boulder would get set, reset, like every six weeks.

00:23:32.31
Matt
There was one route setter. He’s still climber. His name’s Jason Danforth. He would come from New York City. Every six weeks, he’d strip a section. He’d set up new ones, and that would be it for six weeks. And in that set, there’d probably be a B0, a B1, a B3, a a B5, B6. then there one hard problem. I don’t and then there was one like hard problem i don’t I was newer client, I don’t know, but my guess is it was probably somewhere between eight and 10.

00:23:58.62
Matt
ten There you go. That was it. And so if the whole gym had like, i don’t know, seven or eight or 10 sectors, if you will, like there’s 10 total problems that were V8 or harder in the gym at a time and that there was no board, there was nothing. So Compare that to opening the any of the board apps where there are like multiple V14s, V15s, V13s, like many.

00:24:28.25
Matt
um that’s That’s insane. So like on any of the LED boards, you could, like I’ll never, but i could I have access to you know two different tension boards, like TB2s, both layouts, a kilter board,

00:24:45.54
Matt
I’m sure I could access some moon boards, but like that’s more, that’s more hard problems than I will ever climb in my life at my fingertips every single session. Right. So that, that, that is inherently valuable and it’s not just the top end, right. That extends all the way down through the grades.

00:25:02.26
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:25:02.32
Matt
There’s just so many of them. So you’re never going to be stuck in the situation that I would often find myself in, you know, when I first started climbing and I started getting a little better of like, well, okay, I did all the,

00:25:02.41
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:25:13.02
Matt
All the V fives and below in the gym, there’s a couple sixes I could keep working on or something. And then there’s, there’s a couple hard ones that feel too hard, but there’s nothing else for me to really do.

00:25:23.84
Matt
So you just aren’t ever going to run into that. I mean, there’s like over 200,000 boulder problems in the kilter board app right now.

00:25:26.80
Neely Quinn
Wow.

00:25:29.48
Matt
Like no one’s going to do them all.

00:25:30.30
Neely Quinn
That’s crazy.

00:25:31.67
Matt
period, you know, like, ah it’s just not gonna happen.

00:25:31.72
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:25:35.21
Matt
So you’re never run out. So just the access and access to intensity, but like access to quantity of problems and access to really high intensity is in super valuable from a training perspective.

00:25:45.75
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Makes sense.

00:25:47.61
Matt
I think the other thing that gives boards quite a bit of value is that they really distill climbing difficulty down.

00:26:00.66
Matt
through simplifying movement. It’s not that all board style movement is just quote basic, but but you know, it’s a clean angle. It’s often, you know, bad holds, bad feet or bad positions.

00:26:12.59
Neely Quinn
We’re in comps.

00:26:15.83
Matt
And ah it’s not usually super hard to kind of puzzle through like the beta kind of thing. Um, whereas, you know, on set holders, root setter is really good. A lot of times that can be more of a problem solving process like outside.

00:26:33.91
Matt
Um, yeah, we’re in comps and where you’re like, Oh, where it basically feels impossible.

00:26:34.36
Neely Quinn
or comps

00:26:40.39
Matt
and then you’re like, Oh, okay. I figured out this trick. It was super in obvious. Um, I understood it better. And now I, now I can do it. There’s value in both of them, but obviously from a training perspective, it’s good to, uh,

00:26:55.38
Matt
you’re gonna It’s gonna be easier to access the top end of just your physical abilities in simpler movements more quickly and more readily more regularly.

00:27:03.29
Neely Quinn
Yeah, which can then be applied to the hardest parts of those other folders sometimes.

00:27:07.22
Matt
Exactly. Yeah, yeah just it’s you know I think of that just as like a if we’re trying to build strength and power. Well, it’s gonna give you easier access to the top end of your strength and power more regularly. Not that you can’t access that on set builders, but there’s often more of a problem solving kind of buy-in.

00:27:27.67
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So that’s kind of like the preface to all the things that you’re to talk about.

00:27:32.18
Matt
um

00:27:35.22
Neely Quinn
And you actually on your outline wanted to talk about next, the three main types of sessions, but I would really like to, if you don’t mind, skip down to the pros and cons of each of the major boards, just to do more of an introduction to the boards.

00:27:48.09
Matt
Yeah, sure.

00:27:51.28
Neely Quinn
Can we do that?

00:27:51.48
Matt
Yeah, sounds good. um

00:27:56.41
Matt
So as I said, their tools they’re I think they’re all valuable. um this is This was like a very cursory ah shot at kind of giving some pros or cons or ways to think about the boards, just to help people kind of make choices about which tool would maybe, you know, if you have access to multiple, which tool would maybe help you target the thing you’re trying to train most effectively.

00:28:29.13
Matt
Um, but I don’t think this is like a comprehensive list or like a ranking of the boards in any way.

00:28:29.39
Neely Quinn
Cool.

00:28:35.67
Neely Quinn
Okay, yeah. For the record, he has moon boards, kilter board, and tension board in spray walls in that order. So you’re saying it’s not an order of your preference.

00:28:47.03
Matt
No, it’s it is not.

00:28:47.93
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:28:48.67
Matt
And there are obviously other boards.

00:28:49.29
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:28:50.79
Matt
These are just so the ones I sort of have climbed on enough to maybe feel like I can give any amount of intelligent ah statements about.

00:29:00.92
Neely Quinn
Yeah, so what do you think about the moon board?

00:29:04.31
Matt
ah So I said the pros, I think, are that there’s a really large and active community. um there’s, you know, that means you’re gonna be getting new problems. People are setting ah and people care about the like quality of the boulders going into the app. um I think another pro is the benchmarking system.

00:29:24.31
Matt
Like that’s just an additional filter, but for quality. Uh, like, i think it is worth noting, like, there’s like only like a couple, I think there’s actually maybe two or three people who are allowed to, who benchmark problems, like the main one being Ben Moon.

00:29:40.35
Matt
So it’s not like, yeah.

00:29:40.89
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I didn’t even know that was a thing. i I didn’t know that there were like the powers that be until I talked to Ravioli Biceps. And if if anybody wants a deep dive on the moon board, like definitely would listen to that episode.

00:29:52.82
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. So I think it’s important to note with, so with the benchmarks on the moon board or the classics on like the, the tension boards, these are not like the be all end all.

00:30:04.25
Matt
Like it, it mostly comes down to like, Oh, Ben liked this boulder and thinks it’s good. Um, a lot of the time. So, but it’s still useful as a way if you take like, Oh, there’s 200,000 boulders or something. It’s a nice way to,

00:30:18.87
Matt
kind of filter that sample size down a little bit ah um to have things to focus on. I think that’s great. um And obviously, if you’re considering, you know, i tried to include like a points about these boards.

00:30:30.66
Matt
If you’re considering buying one for your, for home use and, and moon boards are, they’re smaller and they’re more affordable than any of the other LED boards.

00:30:37.18
Neely Quinn
Yeah. So like eight by 12, right.

00:30:40.41
Matt
i Yeah. I think they’re like two sheets or something or three sheets of plywood, but yeah.

00:30:43.80
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:30:45.25
Matt
So there, you know, there’s kind of like a ceiling height buy-in, um but you can just frame it like you don’t want, you don’t need to like an adjustable angle kind of system. So that’s just going to make it installed yeah more simpler and way cheaper.

00:31:03.48
Neely Quinn
Yeah, they’re all at 40 degrees.

00:31:04.03
Matt
40 degrees, yeah.

00:31:06.14
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:31:06.65
Matt
I think there is a 20 degree version, but yeah, but and I don’t know.

00:31:08.86
Neely Quinn
Oh.

00:31:11.61
Matt
And obviously it was the mini moon board, but I’ve never caught that one. um But i yeah, I think based for what like most people consider the moon board, we’re talking about 40 degrees. And so I think that’s my first con is that they’re it’s fixed angle.

00:31:24.38
Matt
um right

00:31:24.43
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:31:26.40
Matt
There’s nothing wrong with 40 degrees, but it’s just less versatile. I like climbing at 40 degrees. like climbing at 45. I like climbing at 55. Um, you know, I like being able to cycle through different angles depending on what I’m getting ready for or, you know, what I’m emphasizing in my training and a moon board doesn’t do that.

00:31:46.01
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:31:47.51
Matt
Um, the other, another con I think is it’s not, and I should preface this by saying I have not climbed on the 2024 setup at all. And, but it’s not for the other sets I’ve climbed on. It’s not the most diverse hold set.

00:32:03.10
Matt
Like, it’s mostly, like, fingery pinches and crimps. You know, I guess there’s a pocket or two. But um there’s not…

00:32:11.68
Neely Quinn
Yeah, it’s basically the opposite of kilter.

00:32:14.46
Matt
Yeah, exactly. and

00:32:15.83
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:32:16.38
Matt
And or like, there’s not a ton of slopers. There’s not a ton of… You know, they’re the difficulty in the holds is often created by just their fingery nature.

00:32:26.78
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:32:27.24
Matt
Which, you could argue that’s a pro, also.

00:32:27.60
Neely Quinn
Yep.

00:32:29.79
Matt
But I think that… ah I put it in the con just because if it’s your only board or something, I think, you know, it’s again, it’s limiting in terms of options.

00:32:40.26
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:32:41.40
Matt
And then we’ve kind of already touched on the last con, which I said is that there’s a higher barrier to entry here. Like if youre if you’re trying to do the problems in the app, like, well, hopefully, you know, V4 moon board, which is hard is is something that, you know, you’re already at that level because they’re not getting easier than that for the most part.

00:33:02.26
Matt
So ah that’s that’s ah that’s a reasonably high buy.

00:33:02.62
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:33:06.36
Matt
Whereas like something like the kilter board or the tension boards even have, there are V zeros. Like, you there may be still harder often. And you know, if you put them at, you put the board at 40 or 45, like they might still feel harder than a V0 set folder, but because there’s more diversity in the whole set, there are easier problems to help you kind of work into it.

00:33:28.27
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm. Okay. And then what about the kilter board? Pros and cons.

00:33:33.21
Matt
Okay. I think one of the biggest pros here is the database is massive. Like I said, like there’s literally over 200,000 builder problems and it is expanding like you know A fun game can be to just check the number of problems like one month to see the next month. like it goes It’s going up fast. People are putting up a lot. So you will never run out.

00:33:52.38
Matt
I don’t think anyone’s going run out on any of these, but like that’s it’s great to have options. um I also think a big pro, the kilter, is it it works well across a probably the widest range of angles of any of the LED boards.

00:34:08.57
Matt
So you know you could put, if your kilter board goes from vert to 70 degrees, which is the steepest it goes in the in the app, yeah, not every hold is going to work great or feel comfortable at every angle, but I think they did a really good job of shaping the holds to work at a wide range of angles.

00:34:28.50
Neely Quinn
You know, I never thought about that really until you just said that, even though I’ve climbed on the kilter a lot that because the bolt a lot of the holds are kind of rounded and bulbous. So like they are good enough when it’s steep, but they’re still kind of slopey when it’s not steep.

00:34:45.11
Neely Quinn
So that does make sense.

00:34:45.23
Matt
Yeah.

00:34:46.07
Neely Quinn
i agree.

00:34:47.22
Matt
Yeah. And I, and I think for anyone who is sitting there thinking like, uh, kilter is like, it’s just juggie, like, great. Put it, put it at 60 degrees, put it at 55.

00:34:58.23
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:34:58.94
Matt
Right. Like it, a lot of those holds that don’t feel very, you know, particularly challenging, even at like 40, suddenly they still might not be the most fingery,

00:35:12.34
Matt
but they will come with a really high, like to use them requires quite a bit of body tension then because they’re they’re quite rounded.

00:35:17.82
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:35:19.74
Matt
And I think that’s just, they just did a really good job in the design process in that, I think.

00:35:19.90
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And you.

00:35:24.54
Neely Quinn
Yeah. um And then there was one other pro.

00:35:29.66
Matt
I said they’re easier boulders at all the angles. Like you can legitimately have the kilter board act you know, 55 or something and be climbing like,

00:35:40.47
Matt
quite easy V1 boulders. I think that’s amazing. Like, yeah.

00:35:45.21
Neely Quinn
Yeah, it is. They did a good job.

00:35:47.19
Matt
um Mostly because obviously if you’re at if that’s your sort of level and you’re trying to progress, you don’t wanna just be confined to less steep walls.

00:36:00.21
Matt
How are you gonna get better at steeper bouldering if you never do it?

00:36:00.84
Neely Quinn
Mm

00:36:03.86
Matt
So I think the fact that there is sort of all the difficult the ranges or a lot of the difficulty ranges across a wider range of angles is really valuable from a like versatility standpoint.

00:36:14.27
Neely Quinn
hmm.

00:36:16.82
Neely Quinn
Yeah. OK, and then what are the cons of the kilter?

00:36:21.46
Matt
um I think the number one is what you know i kind of alluded to already it’s not the most fingery. I think people over emphasize maybe this criticism like It’s not just jugs.

00:36:34.97
Matt
Like I hear people say that all the time and it’s, you’re like, okay, come on. um Like, but what they’re really saying is like, there aren’t a ton of like crimps you really like dig into and pull behind.

00:36:44.95
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:36:46.44
Matt
Yeah.

00:36:47.16
Neely Quinn
Which I do think is really important when you’re talking about transferring it to outside, because every boulder I’ve ever been on outside is heinously crimpy or like extremely slopey, you know.

00:36:57.02
Matt
yeah

00:36:59.99
Matt
Yeah, I mean, there’s i I think there’s obviously, like I’d push back on that maybe, but I know like the idea that they’re all crimpy outside or something. um But I hear what you’re saying.

00:37:11.18
Matt
Like, I agree. It’s sort of a shortcoming of that board.

00:37:13.80
Neely Quinn
hmm.

00:37:14.30
Matt
and And so I am glad that the kilter board isn’t the only board that I ever get to climb on. but I don’t think that it, the lack of finger we hold of super like in cut, small, nasty cramps means that it’s not valuable.

00:37:32.88
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:37:33.56
Matt
Like there are a lot of ways to create that difficulty is created in climbing and emboldening outside un routes, whatever that like don’t involve having to like pull hard on a small in cut.

00:37:47.00
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:37:47.96
Matt
Um, yeah I don’t know. I don’t think yeah ah the V12 I did in Waco this year is like mostly jugs. It just happens to be in a roof. right um And kind of like hard body positions, things like that.

00:38:03.80
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:38:04.50
Matt
yeah And our jugs is maybe a stretch, but they’re not it’s not a boulder defined by its fingery nature.

00:38:04.69
Neely Quinn
Got it.

00:38:08.75
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:38:11.94
Matt
But like quite a few of the holds are multi-pad and in-cut. So you’re like, I mean, that’s not a, that’s not a small crimp. Right.

00:38:21.79
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:38:21.93
Matt
Uh, yeah, but so, but I do think that’s like, you know, if you’re looking at, ah you’re like, okay, I’m going to climb on a board because I really struggle like locking off small crimps outside.

00:38:22.68
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:38:33.50
Matt
Well, the kilter boards, it’s not that there’s none of that, but it’s not going to give you as much of that as some of the other options.

00:38:40.06
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:38:40.82
Matt
Yeah. Um, i think my next con is, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

00:38:45.46
Neely Quinn
I want to add to that a little bit because like I have, I don’t know if it’s arthritis. I think it’s arthritis in like the first tip, the tips of my fingers now.

00:38:56.44
Matt
like the dip point.

00:38:56.55
Neely Quinn
And yeah, the dip joint.

00:38:59.00
Matt
Yeah.

00:38:59.32
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And um the moon board definitely flares that up more than the kilter board does by far.

00:39:06.44
Matt
Yeah.

00:39:06.49
Neely Quinn
And so for anybody else who has finger issues or whatever, that’s a consideration.

00:39:12.57
Matt
Well, and and like, I think that’s a good point, right? Like, I think for all of these, like all my cons can potentially, for all these boards can can essentially be flipped to also be pros.

00:39:22.94
Neely Quinn
has pros. Yeah, totally.

00:39:23.79
Matt
Yeah. um Like, in the space that I train, it belongs to BJ Tilton, and then there’s a kilter and a TV too. And he’s rehabbing a, like, pretty big pulley injury.

00:39:37.37
Matt
um And so he’s like, yeah, kilter’s just better for this right now.

00:39:41.59
Neely Quinn
Yeah, yeah, right.

00:39:42.26
Matt
Right? And you’re like, yeah, that’s… So, hell, like, that makes it a pro sometimes. Like, you know i think it’s it’s a little too… There’s no, like… I think what sometimes annoys me in while about this kind of this conversation about the kilter specifically and the holds is there’s sort of this like puff your chest out like bravado around like, oh, like i I have to have the small holds. And it’s like, well, sometimes you don’t need just small holds.

00:40:10.68
Matt
Like that’s okay, right? um It’s okay to create difficulty in other ways. And that doesn’t make it like lesser in any way. It’s just another tool.

00:40:20.18
Neely Quinn
All right.

00:40:21.72
Matt
like we said, but.

00:40:21.94
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:40:24.57
Neely Quinn
And then what are the other cons of the kilter?

00:40:27.35
Matt
ah I do think it’s a con that there’s like no kind of benchmarking or classicking. um Well, it’s a pro that the database is so huge.

00:40:39.61
Matt
I think it it would be nice to have ah some amount of, it would help with the consistency of the grading if there was some amount of ah benchmarking or class game. I think that’s that’s just kind of a con. And I think that that’s also part of the reason why people will talk about like, oh, kilter board’s quote soft.

00:40:59.29
Matt
And it’s like, well, yeah, it’s a it’s a crowdsourced app. Like any you can put up any problem and call it anything you want. So if you just hunt for the V8 that is the easiest possible one for you, and there’s 100,000 options or something, like yeah, you’re probably gonna find one that you think is soft.

00:41:23.58
Matt
Congrats. like But your street yeah, there there’s also probably a lot that aren’t that don’t feel soft.

00:41:24.54
Neely Quinn
okay okay

00:41:29.21
Matt
like and then and it’s just And we’ll get to this later, but that’s sort of like, again, congrats.

00:41:29.40
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:41:34.66
Matt
Was that really the point? Um, yeah, yeah.

00:41:37.34
Neely Quinn
okay Yeah. Okay. Anything else about the kilter?

00:41:43.13
Matt
Uh, it’s expensive.

00:41:44.44
Neely Quinn
who

00:41:45.21
Matt
Yeah.

00:41:45.62
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:41:45.78
Matt
I mean.

00:41:45.90
Neely Quinn
How much is like a normal kilter size that’s adjustable? Isn’t it like $40,000 something?

00:41:53.21
Matt
I mean, I think if you, to buy the, when we were getting ready build it and priced it out, luckily BJ is carpenter. So he just framed it and designed the system himself. But I think if you were to buy like one of the fully adjustable frame, like prefab frames, holds and lights, i think it’s like 60 grand.

00:42:10.61
Neely Quinn
60 grand?

00:42:11.67
Matt
Yeah.

00:42:11.84
Neely Quinn
God, who? Like, I know a lot of people who have kilterboards, and it’s like, that’s a quite an, I guess it’s kind of like buying a van.

00:42:20.86
Matt
Yeah, exactly. It’s an investment.

00:42:21.85
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:42:22.14
Matt
And I mean, it also kind of makes, I think people kind of get upset about that sometimes.

00:42:22.78
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:42:25.66
Matt
And ah it’s important to remind people, they’re not priced for you. They’re priced for climbing gyms.

00:42:29.83
Neely Quinn
You’re right, they’re priced for gyms, yeah.

00:42:30.97
Matt
Yeah. And like climbing gyms make money. So, and this company has, you know, is designed to make money too.

00:42:35.99
Neely Quinn
Right. You’re like charging your friends to get and come in your house.

00:42:37.02
Matt
So like, yeah, it’s, it Yeah, exactly. but But yeah, I think that’s, that again and and the the price and size kind of ones are obviously, these are only really considerations if you’re putting one in your own space.

00:42:41.97
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:42:53.10
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then I, I’m, uh, what about the tension board TB2?

00:43:01.56
Matt
Yeah, so I decided to just talk TB2 here, because it’s the more popular one right now. Obviously, TB1 exists and still does, but, um And it’ll probably become obvious in a second that this is maybe currently the board that I’m enjoying climbing on the most. ah But I don’t think it’s like, again, i don’t, the it’s best kind of thing is not really great.

00:43:26.62
Matt
Good talk. It doesn’t like, there’s no best tool. It’s just a tool. But

00:43:31.77
Neely Quinn
And for the record, I do not like the TB2 at all. I find it to be slippery and really hard, super reachy, and I don’t like the holds.

00:43:34.62
Matt
right.

00:43:39.41
Neely Quinn
So sorry, guys, but I just don’t like it.

00:43:39.81
Matt
Yeah. Yeah, there you go. So again, and and I think there’s there’s probably some, while I am really enjoying it, there’s probably also some recency bias here in that we didn’t, there were none in Lander, and now there are a couple.

00:43:55.32
Matt
And so it it does feel like the shiny new toy a little bit still. But yeah. trying to speak about it a little more objectively. I do think one of the things they nailed here is the diversity of the whole set.

00:44:06.84
Matt
There are small in cuts. There are like legitimately slopey holds. There are, uh, jugs, both wooden ones and plastic ones.

00:44:17.91
Matt
There is plastic and wood. I think that that’s hugely like that adds a lot of value. Um, So just the diversity of the whole set I think is is a real pro of like you can, and and as a result of that, I think it does still work at a bunch of different angles, right? Like I can have a really good session at 40 degrees and I can also have a really good session at 55 degrees.

00:44:44.73
Matt
And like, that’s pretty impressive. and And still be able to climb, like it’s not just like, oh, 55 is automatically harder. or something, right? Like, you know, the V8 at 55 is in theory the same as V8 at 40.

00:45:00.66
Matt
It’s that the, you’re just using hold, different holds are using holds differently. Yeah, so I think that’s a big one, pro.

00:45:11.15
Neely Quinn
And else?

00:45:12.25
Matt
ah I think the feet. This is like something I think they absolutely nailed here. ah Of the LED boards,

00:45:24.70
Matt
the feet are definitely the most complex and worst. And I think that’s really good.

00:45:31.54
Neely Quinn
Yeah, it’s hard to do too.

00:45:31.77
Matt
not Yeah, exactly.

00:45:34.23
Neely Quinn
I guess it’s not. I mean, there are, so they’re all small feet on the kilter and there aren’t really that many small feet on the moon board though.

00:45:42.55
Matt
Yeah. The thing that I like most about the feet is it’s not the, there are bad feet that aren’t just small also, right?

00:45:50.34
Neely Quinn
Okay.

00:45:51.80
Matt
They’re rounded. Like so one of the worst, footholds that, the or a foothold that I have picked the most is like this rounded wooden one. It’s like quite big. Like, it probably I don’t know, I haven’t measured it, but it’s probably like 25 mil or 30 mil, but it’s just like this round ball of no texture.

00:46:08.54
Matt
And then your foot flies off of it, you know, when you get to the side of it or something. um But what I like most about the feet is that they were shaped in a way that makes you have to be deliberate in how you place them.

00:46:22.36
Matt
A lot of time on the moon and the kilter, you can often kind of like slap your foot on, it’s big, and this is how you, in and kind of just push off of it and jump for the next move. um There’s nothing wrong with that. Like that’s a really efficient way to board climb.

00:46:36.47
Matt
You see, if you watch like, you know, you open Instagram and you scroll through board content and you watch people just smashing dynamic movement ah on the boards, like often that’s what you’ll see. Like paced foot, jump to the next hold. And it’s like, yeah, that’s great.

00:46:52.79
Matt
A lot of times on hard boulders outside, that doesn’t work because the feet are too bad or too complex. And so I think that I really like how the feet on the TV2 force, I feel like they force me to slow down and climb at a pace that is more akin to what I do outside.

00:46:57.38
Neely Quinn
Hmm.

00:47:08.60
Matt
where I have to be really deliberate with my feet. And I think there’s, that then causes the downstream effect of like, well, you’re then holding time under tension on holds longer, it you know, further emphasizes body tension and and all those things. And it’s obviously great practice then.

00:47:24.41
Matt
So I think that’s a big pro of the TV too.

00:47:27.54
Neely Quinn
Yeah, that’s interesting. Very nuanced.

00:47:30.30
Matt
Yeah.

00:47:30.62
Neely Quinn
What else about the TB2?

00:47:33.66
Matt
You know, there’s the classics kind of like the benchmarks. I think that that’s a, that can be a pro. Um, and I liked that there’s multiple layouts. Um, you know, the con I wrote down here is that they’re expensive.

00:47:44.95
Matt
And so, although while having now installed one, I’m the idea that, uh, you would take the holds off and change layouts is cause it’s not exactly an easy install is, is kind of laughable. But in theory, if you’re going again, like invest, you know, I think holds and lights are like 14 grand, uh,

00:48:06.07
Matt
you know In theory, if you eventually were like, I’m kind of bored with the mirror layout, you could change it. Although when we did finish putting this one together, somebody was like, I think it was dusty actually.

00:48:17.37
Matt
It was like, I think I’d rather just spend another 14 grand than take this down and put it back up. I just put up a new one. Yeah.

00:48:24.92
Neely Quinn
Well, OK.

00:48:25.33
Matt
Yeah. Which is obviously a joke, but the point being, it’s not like you can change back and forth quickly or easily.

00:48:26.84
Neely Quinn
That’s, yeah.

00:48:32.92
Matt
in any way, but I think that it’s cool to have the option down the line.

00:48:33.11
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:48:37.97
Neely Quinn
OK, and did you say that the TB2 is a mirrored layout?

00:48:42.78
Matt
ah Well, we have there’s two here, one is a mirror, one spray, so we have both.

00:48:47.74
Neely Quinn
And the TB2 has both of those layouts?

00:48:51.00
Matt
Correct.

00:48:51.95
Neely Quinn
OK. That’s interesting. Do you want to talk about that right now or do you want to talk about that later?

00:48:57.88
Matt
um I guess we can talk about that right now. like Obviously like mirrored is, there’s a lot of training utility that comes out of having a mirrored board, you know, being able to do things on both sides.

00:49:10.07
Matt
And I think one of the biggest utilities of that is working around an injury. Like if you’re like, oh my left pinky is injured. And then you’re like, oh, bummer. This problem’s awesome, except for that one left crimp that i that hurts my pinky.

00:49:25.24
Matt
You can just flip it if you’re on the mirrored layout, and then you’re like, oh, cool, doesn’t hurt my finger. So for working around injuries, it’s great. But yeah, i don’t I’m not like diehard person.

00:49:39.64
Matt
like mirror, mirrored board user. Like I don’t, I haven’t, there’s too many boulder problems. I haven’t like started doing them in both ways or something.

00:49:48.82
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:49:49.21
Matt
Yeah.

00:49:50.18
Neely Quinn
Okay. Yeah.

00:49:51.32
Matt
But.

00:49:51.42
Neely Quinn
I will say um I had a PT session with a climbing physical therapist and Ross Bodine, and he has a grasshopper in his office.

00:50:04.63
Neely Quinn
And so we did use that for like some elbow tendonitis I was having just for him to show me what movements I was doing that were contributing to the injury.

00:50:07.82
Matt
Mm-hmm.

00:50:15.01
Neely Quinn
And so I think that it’s, it’s, it sounds like it could be useful in that way.

00:50:19.42
Matt
Yeah, I think the it’s certainly useful, and but I do think that like the main way, while you could like be super diligent and be like, I do it, and I’m sure people do, do every boulder in every in both directions kind of thing, I think for the ah the main way that that shows its utility is through working around injuries.

00:50:39.70
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:50:40.47
Matt
Yeah.

00:50:40.63
Neely Quinn
Yeah. I mean, you want to be strong on both sides. I get it. So I could see like some engineer type wanting to do everything on both sides, you know?

00:50:49.08
Matt
Yeah. Yeah, I think there is. I see i will say, like, i think I actually prefer the spray layout, but they’re both good.

00:50:56.18
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:50:59.06
Neely Quinn
And speaking of the spray layout, the last wall that you have up here for pros and cons is a spray wall, which would just be obviously a board that one makes and then just puts a bunch of holds on.

00:50:59.94
Matt
Yeah.

00:51:10.87
Matt
Yeah, and I threw this one on the list because I, i as like a not all like i think we’re we’re starting to confuse when we say board climbing people automatically at least in the us assume we’re talking about the led boards now um but that’s that’s not necessarily true um and i think that like spray walls can be really good um and so it’s like just because there’s not a an app that lights up the holds doesn’t mean there’s not value in them um

00:51:25.01
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:51:42.62
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I mean, I have to say that like i was i was using the 2016 Moonboard for a while, and I love it. But like for most of the V4s and V5s, you’re starting A on the same hold. You’re doing a lot of the same sequences, and it kind of gets boring after a while. And like during COVID, we built a spray wall, and it was so nice being able to change the holds out.

00:52:09.85
Neely Quinn
And so I would say that that’s definitely a pro.

00:52:09.94
Matt
Yeah.

00:52:12.79
Matt
Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, again, there’s no best board. But I think if you were like, gun to my head, i could only have one for the rest of my life kind of thing.

00:52:25.65
Matt
I’d probably choose a really good spray wall.

00:52:27.64
Neely Quinn
Oh, interesting.

00:52:28.49
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what I put in my house ah is is just a spray board. um And so pros though, I think the fact that it’s it’s infinitely customizable is what, is kind of what you’re getting at as well.

00:52:43.13
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:52:43.19
Matt
Like, and you can add to it over time, you can change it. And and also like, if it’s yours, like obviously if it’s a spray wall in gym, don’t go grab a, you know, ah a drill and start moving holds around people. You know, it’s not, that’s not going to be okay. But especially if it’s yours, like you can just make any change you want at any time.

00:53:05.20
Matt
Oh, I’ll add a hold. I’ll take, ah, that hold’s not really working how I want it to. Great. Take it off. Put something different there. You know, you could, although I think this is personally, I think it’s often a mistake, but you could strip the whole thing and start over.

00:53:19.64
Matt
ah like It’s infinitely customizable.

00:53:24.28
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:53:24.31
Matt
I think that’s great. I think the other pro here is spray walls often have the most diverse hold sets. Obviously, you need to do that intentionally, but there’s you can, have A, have more holds.

00:53:41.59
Matt
Like moon boards, for example, the setting’s not very dense. right um like If you were to fill those in with just other random holds, you could fit quite a few.

00:53:46.52
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:53:51.58
Matt
and so If you can fit more holds, you’re going to be able to have room to have.

00:53:52.08
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:53:55.96
Matt
you know You can have your tiny crimps, you can have jugs, you can have pinches, you can have full-on bad slopers, you can you know all of those things. You can have a really diverse skill set.

00:54:07.93
Matt
And then I think the other pro I put here is i i called it like a local community. And I think this is the best spray walls, whether they’re in somebody’s house or in a gym, they kind of develop like a local following where everyone’s setting for, for themselves, but also for each other. And I think that that can create, like, there there are walls that have sort of, like, really good ethos behind them um and that sort of express really useful habits or useful values in their, ah that come across in, like, the boulders that then exist on them.

00:54:44.31
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:54:45.01
Matt
Yeah.

00:54:46.04
Neely Quinn
Okay. and then what are the cons of spray walls?

00:54:49.61
Matt
Yeah.

00:54:52.28
Matt
If you’re putting one up yourself, I think it it often feels like the cheaper option up front. And certainly to to simply get ah some holds up and start climbing, sure, it’s going to be way cheaper. But I think in the long run, you often spend more money.

00:55:16.09
Neely Quinn
Whoa, that’s cute. What? We spent like $1,500 on our whole setup.

00:55:22.36
Matt
Yeah, I mean, when you if you just think about though how much holds cost and people keep adding over time.

00:55:28.57
Neely Quinn
I know, but we like went to all of the gyms we went to all the gyms and asked for used holds and all that marketplace.

00:55:31.61
Matt
Yeah.

00:55:34.10
Matt
Yeah, I mean, there’s ways to do it for sure.

00:55:35.86
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:55:36.63
Matt
But

00:55:39.70
Matt
especially if you want a lot of holds and it’s a bigger wall, like the the cost can get really big really quick. Like, like i have my, my board is I have eight foot ceilings. It’s 45 degrees. It’s not that wide.

00:55:54.42
Matt
It’s small. I have definitely spent like, and I, and I’ve made a lot of the holds that are on there myself out wood. I’ve definitely spent over three or four grand on holds already.

00:56:06.65
Neely Quinn
Yeah, which is still way cheaper than any of the other ones.

00:56:07.45
Matt
Like,

00:56:10.81
Matt
but it’s like, maybe,

00:56:11.35
Neely Quinn
oop

00:56:13.82
Matt
I could like add four or five times the number of holds that are up there still and and plan to over time.

00:56:18.87
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:21.06
Matt
So I just think, sure, maybe that’s like slightly overstated, especially if you factor in like the the adjustable frames, you know, like,

00:56:21.50
Neely Quinn
yeah

00:56:31.51
Matt
but for, you know, the like $60,000 price tag, if you’re just buying like a lemur frame or something, but I just, it’s a, it’s a caution is all that. I think people are often like, Oh yeah, it’ll be super cheap. It’ll be great.

00:56:44.82
Matt
And then they’re like Oh, well I need more feet. I need more of this. I need more that. And the next thing you know, you’re like Holy shit. I actually spent quite a bit of money.

00:56:52.52
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:56:52.71
Matt
Um, and often like certainly like a moon board might actually be cheaper than, um,

00:56:58.23
Neely Quinn
and good

00:57:00.18
Matt
So I think that’s a con. But also, there’s also the time cost of setting it up. So if you put up a moon board, kilter board, tension board, LED board, you open the database, you open the app, boom, all the boulders are there.

00:57:17.91
Matt
ah In a spray wall, when you’re setting up a spray wall, you like you have to set those problems, or you and your friends have to set those problems.

00:57:25.66
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

00:57:27.04
Matt
So

00:57:27.32
Neely Quinn
And then have a way of like keeping them somewhere.

00:57:31.38
Matt
Yeah, and there’s way there are apps you can, like the Stoked app works really well, but you know you do have to pay for it. I’ve used that a lot over the years. but Or I’ll just take photos of my board and then just like circle the holes in each photo for each problem.

00:57:44.63
Neely Quinn
Yeah, that’s what we did.

00:57:46.14
Matt
um So there are ways to do it, but

00:57:46.52
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:57:49.85
Matt
the initially, like your board is going to be more limited when you’re like, cool, there’s like six set problems. like So every session you basically like have to go set something. You can’t just like swipe to the next problem. um It gets better over time, but there’s that initial setup cost of like time setting and making up boulders, which again, it could be a pro or it could be a con, I guess, depending on how you look at it. but um The other con I wrote down though is always needing to set for yourself. So again, if this is like a spray wall in a commercial gym that has, you know, the stoke dab or something, and you can climb on, you know, like all the local community boulders, this isn’t as much of an issue, but certainly if it’s like only in your house,

00:58:34.04
Matt
and mostly you just climb on it i do think it’s good to set for yourself but only setting for yourself can be limiting like i have a movement style you have a movement style we all have movement preferences and we just see the holds in certain ways so you’re always gonna even if you like actively push against it you always sort of set somewhat to your your dimensions your strengths so like

00:58:55.67
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

00:59:00.09
Matt
You know, for years I shared the Slayer board with Dusty that was is in his house. um And one of the things that was made it, we both think, really valuable for us was that, like, he’s over six feet tall, I’m not.

00:59:14.78
Matt
We have, like, pretty opposite climbing strengths and weaknesses. Like, and so a lot of the time i would set something and I’d be like, oh yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it’s hard, but like, I don’t think it’s that bad.

00:59:27.16
Matt
And then he’d be like, this is like, you know, I’d get a text like, what the hell did you do here? This is, this doesn’t go. And then the same thing would happen in the other direction. I’d go into session and he’d be like,

00:59:38.60
Matt
he’d have set something and i I’d be like this is impossible I don’t understand it um but then obviously you know get some data work your way through it puzzle it out and suddenly you’re like oh actually this is like this I would never have set this problem myself or climbed these moves with without somebody else setting so I think you know you just want to be cautious of that if and it’s something I like try to be cautious about even on my board making sure I invite people over and have them set other problems so I’m not only climbing on things that I made up.

01:00:11.48
Neely Quinn
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, well, that seems like we covered the pros and cons of each of the major boards. um And now, do you want to talk about some session types that people can do on the boards?

01:00:27.42
Matt
Yeah, let’s just do it real quick, maybe. because i think it’s Personally, I think i kind of think it’s pretty straightforward, maybe. um

01:00:35.13
Neely Quinn
Okay.

01:00:35.93
Matt
but And then i’d I’d rather spend more time talking about like some pitfalls and board climbing etiquette stuff, but yeah.

01:00:42.17
Neely Quinn
Okay, yeah, briefly take us through three session types.

01:00:45.94
Matt
Okay. So I think there’s the obvious one call it. Although I kind of hate the term now call it limit bouldering. Hey, I’m to in, I’m to try hard to climb the hardest boulder I can right now.

01:00:57.30
Matt
Like, and I have a project.

01:00:57.66
Neely Quinn
Right, and for for the record, like just so if people want to dive into these, you have done episodes on these things, you have written articles on this, all on training data, so you don’t really need to do much.

01:01:11.32
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:01:11.33
Matt
Awesome. So yeah, this is just like a, it’s a difficulty focused session, right? I am trying to climb a hard thing. Great. Right. um I think in the other end of the spectrum, then you’ve got like energy system work.

01:01:24.60
Matt
So this is where like often I think root climbers should be doing the go climb a hard problem, but also obviously this is your endurance, your empowering endurance training, you know, doing boulders on the minute boulders on two minute clock, linked boulders, longer circuits, right? Like,

01:01:40.86
Matt
You don’t only have to, whether it’s an LED board or a spray wall, you don’t only have to climb on things that are like established boulders in the the database, right?

01:01:51.51
Matt
Like the endurance work I did last night that I’m doing on a kilter right now, I literally just made up like a 30 move circuit that I climb and then link into a problem.

01:02:03.10
Matt
Like I haven’t, it’s saved in the app. I haven’t published it because it would literally not make sense to anyone. It just looks like I spastically like highlighted a bunch of holds, uh, but you can use these boards in different ways.

01:02:18.26
Matt
Right. Um, so you can do your, some endurance training or power endurance training on it. Um,

01:02:24.37
Neely Quinn
Okay.

01:02:25.34
Matt
And then I think there’s kind of like, in there’s the the maybe the in-between of the two sessions. So you could call it like second tier boulders, but really what it is is just submaximal volume. um And that’s sort of like, when I think it’s done really well, it has clear parameters.

01:02:39.86
Matt
Like I’m gonna do X number of boulders at Y grade. you know So this grade is hard for me, but maybe not absolute max. And I’m gonna try to do you know five of them or 10 of them or something like that.

01:02:54.46
Matt
Like I know a session Alex likes a lot and programs a lot for her athletes is, is something like, um you know, pick a grade on a board climb, you know, work towards climbing 10 of them, then try to repeat those 10 together in a, in a session later on.

01:03:12.95
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah.

01:03:13.43
Matt
And then you can move on to another grade. So that’s obviously not just like, hey, go find the hardest thing you can do. it’s You’re gonna get a higher number of higher amount of volume and sort of consolidate a grade it that way. I think that’s a great session.

01:03:26.46
Matt
um When I think these sessions aren’t done as well is when it’s basically more about, hey, i’m gonna um this is a grade that the number makes me feel good. It kind of feels hard, but I’m just gonna do sort of a bunch of them because it makes me, it’s it’s fun.

01:03:42.87
Matt
Right. There’s something wrong with that all the time. But I think people often confuse that with thinking that it’s actually like, a oh, this is me trying things that are are actually at my top, top end.

01:03:53.32
Neely Quinn
yeah.

01:03:53.46
Matt
um There’s a big difference between the grade I can always climb on a board on any of these boards and the grade I can climb on these boards if I find one and and really dig into it.

01:04:07.22
Matt
Right. And so I think we, people often say, oh yeah, I’m like, this is my limit bouldering day. And they’re like, so I’ve been working on V sevens. I i did a couple. It’s like, well, that’s great. There’s nothing, there’s nothing inherent inherently wrong with that. Sending is good. Like you should send sending is never a bad thing, but if you’re doing like many of them or multiple of them overgrade in a single session, it’s probably not your top level.

01:04:33.05
Matt
right So I just think you should be sort of cautious about, you know if you’re like, hey, this is when I really want to be working on the hard hard.

01:04:42.30
Matt
It’s like balance that out or don’t tell yourself you’re doing that, but let the need of feeling like you’re constantly sending make you drop the grid.

01:04:53.22
Neely Quinn
Right.

01:04:53.46
Matt
or drop the difficulty.

01:04:53.88
Neely Quinn
It’s easy to do.

01:04:54.82
Matt
It’s not just the grade, but, um, and so I think that especially on the led boards where there’s so many options, it’s easy to just kind of swipe people often fall into that trap. But so, yeah, those are three sort of categories, I guess, of sessions. They’re not like fully designed sessions as much as like, I think they’re like three different sort of two ends of the spectrum and maybe one in, in the middle.

01:05:21.02
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I think that’s helpful. I think people might wonder, you know, when to do this. So like I asked on Instagram for questions about this topic and One of them was I’m working on pure slow strength is board climbing counterproductive. So I don’t know what they mean by slow strength.

01:05:42.39
Matt
I’d assume they mean like kind of like static movement, high tension, walking off, things like that.

01:05:48.95
Neely Quinn
Okay.

01:05:48.98
Matt
um You know, and i actually I think this is a great time to ask this because like, no, I don’t think board climbing would be counterproductive to that, but it comes down to your application.

01:06:01.14
Matt
of the tool. So if you are working on slow strength and you’re just pick, you’re just swiping through board climbs in on any of the boards where you’re just jumping around between holds, whether they’re small or big holds.

01:06:18.52
Matt
Yeah. Like you’re not working on that. But if you either set yourself something that, you know, a a circuit, a wall crawl, a, a boulder that and tried to then climb it full static in control that would obviously be working on that and or you can you could sift through boulders and be like okay these are the ones in the movement style that i want um to work on ah So yeah, I don’t think it’s like Borghami is certainly not counterproductive to that, but your application of of any of these tools would have to, if that’s your goal, would have to emphasize that.

01:06:59.45
Neely Quinn
Right. Like in my case, slow strength on a board, since I’m so short is like very hard to come by. Most of the time I’m and doing dynamic moves. So I would have to put holds like intermediate holds in there.

01:07:14.33
Matt
Or even if like you were, let’s just say you were climbing on the 2016 moon board, instead of just lighting up boulders, you could set like 10 or 12 move on challenging hold kind of circuit, even if it’s like oh quote bad boulder, like you could easily break the beta and just like skip half the moves and you could kind of rep that as, as your, your training for that.

01:07:37.73
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:07:40.91
Matt
That’s, that’s something I’ll program for people all the time and do myself.

01:07:40.95
Neely Quinn
yeah

01:07:44.50
Matt
Um, I have on my, my board in my house, um, that I’ve used to sort of help me. It’s, it’s all, you know, terrible woodhull to the most part. And so, uh, to help me kind of get used to being able to move slow and controlled on them on holds of that south yeah it’s like it’s a it’s a terrible boulder problem if you were judging it on just like the quality of the set and whether i forced a sequence but i can i can but it’s hard lock off all the holes and so i’ll i’ll use it sometimes i do full sessions where i do it you know four times uh other times i just do it as my final warm-up um to help me get going on board

01:08:23.96
Neely Quinn
Yeah, that makes sense. I like that. um I think that we covered the session types, right? OK, so you wanted to talk about some pitfalls of board climbing.

01:08:37.91
Matt
Yeah, so this is this is really what like I think you were kind of getting at and like what are the what are maybe what are the questions I’m getting or in my coaching about boards, but also like where do i I think people are maybe missing the mark or shortchanging themselves.

01:08:53.47
Neely Quinn
OK.

01:08:55.19
Matt
um So I think the first one is climbing on too many problems. Right? ah There’s 20, 200,000 Boulder problems in the kilter board app. There’s, you’re never, nobody on any of the led boards is ever going to do them all.

01:09:08.95
Matt
Um, it’s really easy to fall into the trap of just swiping through like, oh yeah, that one’s hard next. Yup. Next, next.

01:09:19.32
Matt
And so I think that that’s, that’s a trap. You know, i talked about the, what the climbing gym was like in terms of setting when I first started one of the silver linings of that though, was like, you were forced.

01:09:30.52
Matt
to dig into some of those harder problems because well, guess what? There wasn’t gonna be anything new for the next six weeks. So might as well, you know, you could just repeat the ones you’ve already done or you could work on whichever of the, you know, harder ones that were left you hadn’t done.

01:09:46.36
Matt
And, and some of the times I surprised myself and what went from feeling impossible, even if I never sent the boulder, you know, I could unlock big sections of it or something like that. I think there was quite a bit of value in that.

01:09:57.78
Matt
And so the advice I give here to to really help people not fall into this trap is twofold.

01:09:57.87
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:10:06.87
Matt
One is plan your sessions ahead of time. And the other is to use all the apps have, you can make circuits or like folders of problems, like lists of them.

01:10:18.52
Matt
And so for all of the boards that I climb on, I will have a I have like a projects list. And so, you know, like it’ll be projects and, and I, on the adjustable ones, I’ll do it by angle.

01:10:29.24
Matt
Oh, project 45, project 50, whatever. um But I also have a to try folder. And so if I’m watching other people or I see a problem on Instagram or something, and I think it looks cool, I’ll put it in the to try folder.

01:10:46.78
Matt
And I try, and don’t always succeed, but I try to look through my projects and my to try list before I go to have a session and have a rough plan.

01:11:00.07
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:11:00.18
Matt
cause And when I don’t do any of that, when I have no plan, and I don’t look at those lists at all, I don’t do either, it’s it’s way harder for me to then stay on, to not fall into the trap of like, okay, well, like that one felt hard, but like maybe the next one will feel easier. And then the next thing you know you’re like well, I just tried 10 different problems like all once and I didn’t really like, or twice, and I didn’t really give myself a chance to try enough to like understand them or make any progress.

01:11:28.44
Matt
So I think that’s ah that’s a quick way to kind of undermine a session. um

01:11:31.61
Neely Quinn
Yeah, make a plant, which is something that you do in your climbing all the time is you always have a plant and it seems to work for you.

01:11:37.07
Matt
Yeah, try to. Yeah. um I think my next pitfall is climbing on too few problems. So it’s sort of the opposite. um I see this a lot with fixating on doing the benchmarks or the classics on the moon board or the TV two or TV one. on I get it.

01:11:57.10
Matt
They’ve got the little badge there. You know, they’re like, they’re certified for the grade or whatever. um They’re also just a boulder. like any other one that’s non-benchmarked or non-classic.

01:12:11.42
Matt
And so especially when people, you know, if your goal is like, oh, I want to climb all the V5 benchmarks or something, and you’re down to like one or two left, I think people will get stuck only trying those.

01:12:25.97
Matt
And it’s like, well, i don’t know, why should I try V6 or v seven I can’t do these. And it’s like, well, I guarantee some of the V6 and V7 boulders, even some of the V6 or V7 benchmarks will probably feel easier to you than some of those V5 ones that you maybe have left for whatever reason.

01:12:42.01
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:12:44.01
Matt
It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re objectively harder. It’s just maybe they don’t suit you. You find it hard, whatever. I’m not saying you shouldn’t climb on them, but only climbing. you’re sure you know You’re taking one of the big benefits of these LED boards of having this these massive databases of problems and you’re you’re kind of squandering it by just being like, nope, I’ve shrunk the sample size to this tiny, tiny thing.

01:13:05.21
Matt
And that’s that’s all I’m going to focus on.

01:13:05.53
Neely Quinn
yeah

01:13:09.11
Neely Quinn
yeah That makes sense.

01:13:12.06
Matt
And so a way I’ll kind of coach against this or help people push back on it is A, just like don’t just put the benchmark only or classic only filter on in the app.

01:13:23.80
Matt
But I’ll also remind people too that like you should send somewhat regularly on a board. So if you’re, and i I think you can just kind of adjust the difficulty there by feel a little bit as you go. So if I’m in a ah period of my climbing where I’m like, oh, I’m just like smashing every session I go in.

01:13:43.30
Matt
I’m like, I had a plan and I do my, but I do the boulder. It’s like, Great, well, that probably means I can climb something a little harder. And so I’ll set my sights a little higher for the next session.

01:13:55.26
Matt
If I’m in a period where I’m like, damn, I don’t know, for whatever reason, can’t seem to buy a send on the board, I’ll do the opposite. I’ll just ease the grade back a little bit.

01:14:06.20
Matt
um and and And until I can be like, okay, now I’m like getting back, getting some sends. And so you can kind of go back and forth that way.

01:14:14.55
Neely Quinn
Mm hmm.

01:14:15.65
Matt
But.

01:14:16.06
Neely Quinn
Back and forth. ah Yeah. And I’m sure that there are some people who are like, but how often do I go back and forth? Is there any guidelines?

01:14:21.53
Matt
Yeah. ah

01:14:23.83
Neely Quinn
I think it probably depends, right, on what you’re trying to do, what your goals are.

01:14:25.40
Matt
Yeah. For sure. um And how often you’re climbing and and all the things. but But I do think, like, i don’t know. I don’t want to have… i I definitely, like, if I try to put it in, like, coach speak, it’s sort of a… It depends. But if I put it in, like, what I do, I definitely don’t have, like, more than two sessions in a row that are exactly the same problems.

01:14:49.96
Matt
I’ll be like… I might try, I definitely have tried many aboard climb for more than two sessions, but it’s not only that one and only the same other one and only the same third one or something like that.

01:14:57.34
Neely Quinn
easy

01:15:00.18
Neely Quinn
Well, because also you tend to get more injured if you’re just working on the same kind. Yeah.

01:15:04.79
Matt
Yeah, it’s it it just is, I think that that goes back to what we were talking about initially of like training versus performance. Like if your goal truly what you’re training for is to like do all the benchmarks or something, then great hammer away. Like, but if you, if that, if that’s your stated goal, then by all means get to work.

01:15:23.54
Matt
But if you’re, if you’re sort of like, well, that’d be a nice thing that would also happen while I’m training for outdoor routes or outdoor boulders or comps or whatever, then Well, now you’re not really keeping your original goal and you’re, you’re turning your training session into a performance session.

01:15:39.58
Neely Quinn
who

01:15:40.88
Matt
Um, and I, that’s, I think counterproductive.

01:15:44.09
Neely Quinn
i I’m going to ask a random question because otherwise I’m going to forget it.

01:15:46.42
Matt
Yeah.

01:15:48.09
Neely Quinn
But like, I was just trying to think of what people might be wondering about. And one of it the things it’s is like what to use boards to train for. and I think people go on bouldering trips, they go on climbing trips.

01:16:04.09
Neely Quinn
And I imagine that like if you’re moonboarding a bunch and then you go to Font, Fontainebleau in France, like you’re, that’s probably not going to be the best preparation. like your is there anything? Yeah.

01:16:18.55
Matt
Yeah, so, I mean, I think the short answer is that boards in general are great strength and power training tools. um and And let’s like put aside for a second the idea of using them as energy system, like training tools for roots.

01:16:36.12
Matt
Like if we’re just talking about bouldering on a board. They’re great at building strength and power. But again, if we go back to why, like the value, the training value in boards, they’re doing so through simplifying movement lot of times.

01:16:50.26
Matt
So your Fontainebleau example is great. It’s like, well, yeah, sure. They’re like font has lots of slopers and open hand stuff that maybe isn’t as prevalent on boards.

01:17:03.19
Matt
Um, Like a lot of boards don’t have as like amazing true slopers like of the LED boards.

01:17:09.25
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:17:10.22
Matt
Um, but more of the thing I think that would be limiting than just the whole type to go from, oh I’m like climbing hard on a moon board to, well, I’m trying to be in font. It’s like, well, you’re not standing on bad feet.

01:17:21.45
Matt
You’re not heel hooking. You’re not toe hooking. You’re not getting in really sort of awkward, weird positions. Um, that certainly define a lot of the climbing and font.

01:17:34.42
Matt
um And sort of like learning to utilize like body position as well as not just like, oh, can I try to rip this hold off the wall? um So yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t just climb on a board in that scenario, um but it doesn’t mean, I also wouldn’t say if like, if you, let’s say we’re getting ready for a trick to font,

01:17:58.17
Matt
like, so I can moon board or i can climb on set boulders. Like, which one should I do? I’d say, well, it’s not an either or. It should be a both end. Like, yeah, you should definitely build. you know, it’s good to feel snappy on a board.

01:18:10.64
Matt
That’s there’s I don’t think there’s ever a time in climbing. That’s a bad thing. um But if you were only climbing on a moon board, I think it would be a There’d be ah certainly an adaptation period of once you got to France of like trying to apply that, but you wouldn’t be mad to have that strength and power. So why not just do a bit of both?

01:18:29.97
Matt
um, in your, in your training so that you’re getting that strength and power stimulus, that really high end strength power stimulus on a board, but also, yeah, go climb on set boulders and climb on the weird ones that you’d normally maybe skip over and be like, nah, that’s dumb. It’s a slab.

01:18:44.25
Matt
Or, uh, that’s, I think a big one with font and specifically is like, people be like oh, that’s comp style. It’s got volumes. like, well, those, first of all, it’s not necessarily just cause there’s a volume on the wall doesn’t make it comp style.

01:18:56.97
Matt
And some of those problems will do a great job then of simulating exactly the kind of movement that you’d maybe be doing in font.

01:19:05.05
Neely Quinn
Yeah, yeah.

01:19:05.21
Matt
And so like having you, maybe they have a session where you were climbing a lot on a, you know, you’d have a moon board session in your week, but you’d also have a set boulder session where you go in and you climb on all the,

01:19:16.57
Matt
the The quote non board bike problems compress on a rats do this labs climb on the volume climbs puzzle through it, you know, and I think that would all that would would really translate fun, but so it’s not either or it’s both in.

01:19:30.82
Neely Quinn
Okay. Yeah, that’s a great answer. I love that. Okay. ah You were talking about board climbing pitfalls. Yeah.

01:19:40.04
Matt
Okay. Yeah, next one, not resting enough. And this is not unique or exclusive to boards. But as somebody who has, you know, for the past couple months, sort of dove back into bouldering from, ah you know, eight months or something of sport climbing.

01:19:57.11
Matt
ah This is something I was not doing a great job of, and have really tried to be more deliberate about because there’s no faster way to sabotage a session indoors outdoors boards set holders etc than just rapid firing like it’s just and it’s so hard to do to not like to not do their rapid fire uh because

01:20:23.61
Neely Quinn
I know. It’s like the only way to do it is to make sure there are six other people working on the board so that you have to rest.

01:20:28.38
Matt
Yeah, totally. I mean, it it does help. um I think the other way to do it is just starting a stopwatch on your phone. Like, I don’t like setting a timer.

01:20:35.45
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:20:36.53
Matt
Like, i I don’t know, maybe this is semantic, but I don’t want it counting down. But I just want to be able to look over and be like, when I’m like, all right, I’ve definitely rested. And I look over and you’re like, 15 seconds. You’re like, maybe not.

01:20:48.22
Neely Quinn
Yeah, that’s kind of it

01:20:48.27
Matt
You know, like, yeah, like, I think having some kind of objective measure can be really important there.

01:20:55.32
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:20:55.57
Matt
but every time like in Waco that I would be starting to like try too much, my, it would, my performance would tank. And all the times, like pretty, I think pretty much every boulder that I sent in Waco this, this year, I was like, I showed up when it went well, I showed up, I was patient. I warmed up.

01:21:17.70
Matt
I did some sections. I chilled, took a long rest. I tried, Even if it was like a disappointing go, I’d be like, it’s okay. I’d take my shoes off, take my knee pad off, whatever, chill, rest, wait until I felt really good again and then be like, okay, and then I can connect execute. And I think that that when I have good board sessions, that’s exactly what I do. When I have bad board sessions, that’s exactly the opposite of what I do. It it seems to me, for me personally, one of the bigger predictors of whether i have a good or a bad session is my patience.

01:21:49.75
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. And your intention too. Because if you’re you’re like, all right, I’ve got 90 minutes to climb. I’m going to go do a board session.

01:22:00.20
Neely Quinn
like you want There’s a part of you that might want to get as many problems in as you can.

01:22:01.19
Matt
Yeah.

01:22:05.28
Matt
Yeah. And, but I would push back there and like, I feel these same things, but when I’m like coaching or when I’m trying to, you know, basically coach myself or steer myself in a positive direction, I, I, the question I’d ask is, would you rather have like 90 minutes of shitty tries?

01:22:22.78
Matt
where you get a lot of them or like, you know, I don’t know, pick a number, eight really good attempts or something.

01:22:28.59
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:22:29.00
Matt
Right. And, and that’s not eight total pull ons. Right. But eight, like where you like learn the beta we’re patient, you know, it’s not, there’s nothing like, oh, I have to rest five minutes after every time I pull on or something.

01:22:41.80
Matt
Obviously, there’s a big difference between pulling on, doing one move, falling or or letting go, and you know falling on the last move of like an eight-move problem or something. like

01:22:51.75
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:22:51.96
Matt
One requires a lot more rest than the other. So a guideline I give in my coaching often is and i he like, and and it’s a rough guideline, but is one minute of rest per move completed or attempted?

01:23:05.05
Matt
I think it’s a reasonable starting point. Yeah.

01:23:07.03
Neely Quinn
Yeah, for sure. Okay, what else are a pitfalls?

01:23:13.30
Matt
The next one i wrote down is fixating on the grades. um This has become, it I will admit before I dig into this, a personal pet peeve of mine in my coaching and again in my ah you know personal life as a climber.

01:23:30.52
Matt
um

01:23:33.62
Matt
I don’t think, if we’re talking led boards here, I don’t think they’re V grades. And I think it’s better to just not think of them as V grades.

01:23:45.61
Matt
They’re not meant to be. Like you said it already. You’re like, V4 moon board isn’t the same as V4 sepult V4 outside or anything like that. And that’s true at every grade. um They’re just not the same. So the way I push against this and what I’ll often have my athletes do is literally, and what I do amongst my friends here, like at home, people I climb with and train with, you know, many of whom, some of whom were like top, top level climbers, right? Is we’ll just refer to it. If we’re coming on kilter board, it’s not V8 or V9 or whatever. It’s K9.

01:24:19.93
Matt
If we’re on a moon board, it’s M9. If it’s a tension board, it’s T9.

01:24:24.38
Neely Quinn
I love that.

01:24:25.34
Matt
Yeah, and it’s just like, i think it just helps set up a healthier attitude towards grades. And to underscore this, I think it’s important to say, it’s been a while since I caught on a moon board, but when I was last doing it regularly, I was coming on a 2016 moon board, and there is a V6 benchmark called Punch Drunk.

01:24:32.73
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:24:49.56
Matt
that I don’t think I’ll ever do.

01:24:52.55
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:24:53.53
Matt
And I’ve tried it all lot. And I would go to, and like, I was trying it, making some progress, but it’s it quite hard. I don’t know. I just couldn’t do it. For whatever reason, I’d find it nails. And then I would like go to Waco and climb V11 or V12.

01:25:09.46
Matt
And then I’d be like, yep, still can’t do punch drunk. That’s a five or sixth grade difference. And so,

01:25:20.22
Matt
And that doesn’t bother me at all.

01:25:22.46
Neely Quinn
Well, that was actually a question that i was going to ask you because people might wonder how the grades on the boards translate to outdoors.

01:25:23.03
Matt
Yeah.

01:25:32.59
Neely Quinn
And obviously every outdoor area is going be a little different, but like if you’re climbing on the TV too, what grades are you projecting and sending?

01:25:42.20
Matt
Like V8 and V9. Yeah.

01:25:43.93
Neely Quinn
Yeah. And right. And then you go outside and you climb V12, V11, et cetera. Yeah.

01:25:48.44
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. but and And I think, you know, my my answer, I’m happy to answer that personally, but I think my my general answer was they don’t translate because there are people who crush on the boards and then see a drop off.

01:26:03.74
Matt
Like they’re like, oh, I climb, you know, V10 on the tension board or something. And outside I’m projecting, you know, V8 or something. And then there are people like me where it goes in the other direction. There are lots of both.

01:26:16.34
Matt
And so that’s that’s kind of my point where it’s like, they’re just not V grades. And so I just try to literally by changing the letter attached to the grade, I try to ah

01:26:29.08
Matt
completely disassociate the two.

01:26:31.51
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good tactic.

01:26:35.13
Matt
Yeah. And I mean, it’s worth saying like on my board at home, they’re there are no grades. I have, and I literally don’t know. I can tell you like, oh, that problem is like, I do that one in my warmup.

01:26:48.41
Matt
Or I think this one’s harder than that one. But I literally, I haven’t put any thought into like how hard they actually are.

01:26:57.86
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:26:58.93
Matt
I don’t know.

01:27:00.47
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:27:00.45
Matt
Yeah. Like, and on the Slayer board, like when Dusty and I had it for years, and we were doing the the circle like in editing our photos. here Get ready for this grading scale. This was pretty good. Problems were green.

01:27:16.15
Matt
If they were harder than green, they were yellow. If they were harder than yellow, they were red. they were harder than red, they were blue. And if they were harder than blue, they were white.

01:27:27.77
Matt
That’s it.

01:27:28.70
Neely Quinn
I mean, that’s kind of like the bouldering system in the Vegas gym.

01:27:33.85
Matt
Yeah. I think the the problem with some of that and when commercial gyms is then they’ll, they’ll make like a, you know put a number next to it.

01:27:39.54
Neely Quinn
You’ll put numbers in there. Yeah. just

01:27:41.71
Matt
Right. And it’s like, yeah, like, but we would literally just be like, and so and legitimately when we then moved it over to the stoke tap, the slayer board, Dustin and aye the, it makes you attach a grade.

01:27:42.01
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:27:53.88
Matt
And we’d be we were like, i don’t know.

01:27:54.04
Neely Quinn
Oh.

01:27:55.24
Matt
We’ll just like put a best guess. And so there were whites in the original system that we gave like V5 and there were whites we gave v twelve

01:28:04.09
Neely Quinn
Wow.

01:28:04.98
Matt
Like, and there were many whites that were harder than, like most of the whites were harder than the blues, but there were blues that were harder than some of the whites.

01:28:05.56
Neely Quinn
That’s weird.

01:28:12.04
Matt
Cause it was just like, we wouldn’t know, like we just weren’t giving that much thought to it.

01:28:16.86
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:28:16.98
Matt
Like, you’d be like, i don’t know, I set this boulder. It’s cool. i don’t know. Is it white or is it blue? i don’t know. Whatever white. And then maybe you would, we’d been route climbing and not board climbing a bunch. And so we didn’t feel as good on the board, you know?

01:28:28.28
Neely Quinn
Oh, it’s like depends on what season you’re into.

01:28:29.21
Matt
And then you’re like, i Yeah, exactly. Totally.

01:28:32.37
Neely Quinn
That’s funny.

01:28:32.55
Matt
Weird joke about that all the time. Like, you’re like, if you just want to tick a white, you’re going to want to do the ones that are in late summer, like, you know, like kind of thing.

01:28:40.18
Neely Quinn
ah

01:28:41.81
Matt
And you’re going to really want to avoid the ones that are from February when we just came back from Waco and we’ve been bored climbing a lot.

01:28:46.87
Neely Quinn
Okay. that’s funny

01:28:48.48
Matt
Like, you know, so yeah, I just think it’s, it’s really not productive to, to fixate on the grade as a performance metric.

01:28:58.36
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:28:59.43
Matt
Um,

01:28:59.54
Neely Quinn
Okay. So we’re almost at one hour and 30 minutes. So I’m going to ask you to do one more point about board climbing.

01:29:11.19
Matt
Oh, okay. um Just generally or a pitfall?

01:29:15.90
Neely Quinn
Whatever one you want.

01:29:17.67
Matt
Okay. Well, I’m just going to stay on the grade topic here real quick then. um I have, with many of the athletes I coach, I have outlawed the use of the word soft.

01:29:31.86
Neely Quinn
Okay.

01:29:33.53
Matt
This is the pet peeve part. ah

01:29:40.12
Matt
Most of the time I hear it, it’s a it’s a substitute for I did it.

01:29:46.97
Neely Quinn
Yeah, which is a coaching topic I then have to work on with people because they’re like, I did it, but it must not have been very hard because I’m not a strong person.

01:29:50.81
Matt
Yeah.

01:29:57.35
Matt
Right. It just doesn’t make any sense.

01:29:59.58
Neely Quinn
No.

01:29:59.93
Matt
A, but B, If we just take for a second, there’s 200,000 bullet problems in the kills for it at.

01:30:10.62
Matt
It’s likely that some are going to fit you better than others.

01:30:16.66
Matt
Okay, great. That same thing happens outside. you know ah I’ve had days where I’ve like sent V10 and then failed on… the It was literally V3.

01:30:28.79
Matt
And you’re like, so great. like Does that mean the V10 was soft? Or did it just suit? like It’s just not a useful toollike way of interacting with this tool.

01:30:39.43
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm.

01:30:40.34
Matt
If you did it quickly, sending’s never a bad thing. So if you did it quickly, great. Move on to the next one. That can be the next one of the same grade. Maybe it’ll feel harder. It can be the next one of a different grade.

01:30:52.73
Matt
Maybe it’ll feel harder. If it took a long time, so be it. Like the attached grade it doesn’t change the actual difficulty of the challenge.

01:31:03.90
Matt
So it’s just like, if it’s soft, great, do it move on. If it’s not, if it’s quote hard, great. Is it serving your training goals?

01:31:17.88
Matt
If yes, invest effort, do it, and move on. like I think that’s just a better attitude than getting caught up in whether or not it’s actually quote, actually the grade or something.

01:31:31.96
Neely Quinn
Yeah, I think that this could be a conversation in itself. I think that people would have a lot to say about it. But I think that your point of whatever, however hard it feels for you, is it serving your intention for that session or your long-term goals is the most important thing.

01:31:49.88
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s obviously a big topic.

01:31:50.81
Neely Quinn
Because it’s also it’s also the way to not get pissed off when something feels sandbagged.

01:31:57.23
Matt
Right.

01:31:57.43
Neely Quinn
Or you’re just like, whatever, it’s just the grade. Move move on if I need to. Or not.

01:32:01.35
Matt
Yeah.

01:32:01.60
Neely Quinn
Or work on this vs six for the rest of your life.

01:32:04.92
Matt
Yeah. No, totally. And I do think it’s, like you said, it’s, I’m i’m not surprised you you run into this often as well, because it’s not just something that comes up on boards. Yeah.

01:32:16.02
Matt
But I think that my point here is like, do you really wanna spend your time trying to make sure that the consensus is great on the kilter board?

01:32:30.17
Matt
Like I get it outside. Like if you’re like, no way, like this is how great to work outside, it’s it’s consensus, right? And so like you if you have an opinion, you should share it kind of thing.

01:32:40.74
Matt
And and you should weigh in. Like everyone’s opinion is, is valuable there. But like, i don’t know. I just can’t, I can’t think of any, like, I don’t have the time to get worked up over whether or not a boulder on the tension board is, at is legit V10 soft V10.

01:33:01.57
Matt
It’s just, it’s just like literally you just click a button on your phone. It starts glowing in front of you and you climb it and then you swipe to a different one. Like, i just don’t care. and i And I just don’t think freaking out about it it matters.

01:33:14.97
Neely Quinn
Well, I think that the, yeah, I think the main point to take away here is like all of the grades on all of the boards are inconsistent.

01:33:15.10
Matt
If, yeah.

01:33:24.66
Neely Quinn
And that is that is what we should go in thinking.

01:33:24.71
Matt
Right.

01:33:28.21
Matt
Right.

01:33:28.40
Neely Quinn
It’s not like, oh, I didn’t do this before and therefore I’m not progressing and therefore suck, you know?

01:33:34.46
Matt
Totally. Yeah, and yeah, I guess it’s like, and I think you can you can flip it to be a positive. Where you can like like, so if the attached grade is motivating to you, great, be re-motivated by it, I guess.

01:33:49.35
Matt
Like, I feel when I send something that’s V10 on a board, i feel good about it. Like, you know, I’m human, i’m not like I’m not just like a Zen monk here. Like, that feels nice, you know?

01:34:02.74
Matt
But when I don’t, when I struggle on like a V seven or V six or something, I’m just like, okay, clearly this is something I need to be working on. And that’s okay.

01:34:14.07
Matt
Like, and so I try to just like have my cake and eat it too, rather than doing the opposite, which is like the, the call always calling it soft, like the, well, I suck. So it it can’t be kind of thing, which is, is neither having your cake nor eating it.

01:34:25.56
Neely Quinn
Right. Yeah.

01:34:29.55
Matt
Um,

01:34:30.36
Neely Quinn
Yeah. You’re kind of being like an objective scientist about the whole thing. You’re like, okay, well, what is it about this V whatever that is stumping me? if I look at a video, like what do I need to get better at or change something subtly about or whatever?

01:34:47.13
Matt
Yeah, totally. And I think mostly then it it also then steers you towards looking at your climbing in a more interesting and productive way than just the grade. So like, like ask why?

01:35:02.36
Matt
So it’s like, well, why is this problem that is several grades below what I normally climb on this board? you know, making me suck on it.

01:35:13.24
Matt
And and like like, oh, okay, well, and I don’t know, the holds feel bad. The movement feels hard, whatever. Ask why again. Well, why is that? Like, ask why three to five times and like, you’ll probably have a much more valuable answer than just it’s sandbagged.

01:35:28.98
Matt
Or, and you can do the same for the one that you think is quote soft.

01:35:29.24
Neely Quinn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:35:33.40
Matt
Well, why? Like, i don’t know, I think it suits me. Well, why is that? I don’t know, I’m good at compression. All the holds are oppositional. Okay, like, why is that something, you know, like, that then leads to better understanding about you and your climbing rather than it’s soft or it’s sandbagged.

01:35:55.29
Matt
Like, and yeah, understanding of your style, things like that. um

01:36:01.05
Neely Quinn
Yeah.

01:36:01.78
Matt
Yeah. And quite often I can predict when I like am doing like the lower graded, you know, problems, you know, sort of that middle range, you know, like end of warmup to kind of flash level.

01:36:15.19
Matt
And I like, I’m swiping through problems and I’ll be like, Oh, yep. Probably going to think that one feels hard. You know, i’m like, and then, you know, what pops up, but it’s like small wooden crimps and front on movement.

01:36:27.90
Matt
And then I swiped to the next one and I’m like, Oh, it’s like compression between, you know, oppositional holds. And I’m like, well, probably going to do that one. Like, and um I’m not always right about it, but like, ah it has certainly thinking in that way over time has informed my understanding of my climbing style.

01:36:37.37
Neely Quinn
Yeah, you can tell.

01:36:44.70
Neely Quinn
Yeah, yeah.

01:36:47.99
Neely Quinn
Cool. Well,

01:36:49.14
Matt
Awesome.

01:36:50.39
Neely Quinn
I think that was a really good overview of the boards. And if people want more talk about this, I’m sure Matt would be happy to come out and wax poetic about whatever topic you want to hear more about. So just email us. um But thank you. And thanks for putting this together. i really liked all the things that you said. i learned a few things and took a few things away from this, even though I’ve been boarding for a while.

01:37:20.12
Neely Quinn
Not that I do it anymore, but um yeah. And then do you want to say anything about clients right now? Are you taking any clients right now?

01:37:30.96
Matt
Uh, yeah, I am. I’m still taking clients. Uh, I’m pretty busy, but I would be happy to work with you if, uh, if you’re looking for help coaching loss. So, yeah. And hopefully, uh, thank you again for having me, but hopefully people, this is useful.

01:37:46.39
Matt
Um, I think even, know, I’ve been climbing on boards for pushing 20 years. Uh, and it was certainly helpful for me to kind of like sit down and, ah try to zoom out enough to be like, well, hold on. Like, what are we actually doing? Why are we doing it?

01:38:03.32
Matt
And so I think even if you’ve, you know, hopefully even if you’ve been doing this for a while, you found some of this useful.

01:38:09.50
Neely Quinn
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was fun to talk about it. So yeah, thank you. And congrats on all of your recent success with climbing. Good job.

01:38:18.65
Matt
Yeah, thank you.

01:38:19.70
Neely Quinn
Yeah. All right. I’ll talk to you soon.

01:38:21.85
Matt
Awesome. Well, yeah, thanks again for having me.